Martinelli’s Big Moment, Alex Scott and Bruno Guimaraes Linked

Tim Stillman0:33Hello and welcome to the ArsenalVision podcast with me your host today, Tim Stillman, because Elliot, he's got the fever. He's got the World Cup fever and he is down with a bad case of World Cup fever, particularly with his much beloved US national team, who we know that Elliot absolutely loves and adores and watches every second of all of their games going well. About to face Bosnia Herzegovina. We all become glory hunters for the World Cup, don't we? So I'm stepping into the host chair for today and with me actually I think for the first time since the end of the season That I've been on a podcast with Clive Palmer Clive. How are you doing?

Clive Palmer1:13Hello, hello. Yeah, we haven't really properly celebrated the title yet or nothing like that. I think we might have been there for the game after Palace, maybe did a pod then. And and I said, I remember I uttered the words for you, I know the sort of day you had at Palace. But and I've been watching all the all of the films since and I thought that was so conceited. You could never have pictured that day, I know because it just got better and better all the times I watched it. So yeah, I that was the wrong thing to say.

Tim Stillman1:44And well, we are recording, we are, a little bit behind the curtain. First off, apologies, a fly has come into the room. It's quite warm in England this week. We put a fly trap out last week, which has largely worked. But obviously the second I've hit record, one of the little buggers has come in. So if it buzzes past the microphone, that will be it. But we're recording not to let you too much behind the curtain, but just after Brazil have beaten Japan and just before Germany are about to play Paraguay, obviously some arsenal interest in both of those games and Clive some big arsenal interest in the Brazil game because Gabriel Martinelli has come off the bench, something we've become familiar with, certainly in the Champions League this season and scored a stoppage time winner for Brazil. Neymar. Had a bit of a face like a smacked ass on the sideline that it wasn't him coming on first. Gabriel Martinelli coming on as a left central midfielder, but very much scoring a striker's goal. And Elliot did message me just before this podcast to say, tell everyone I think Martinelli is our striker. But we've had, yeah, yeah.

Clive Palmer2:53Yeah, okay. Okay, I'm ready for that.

Tim Stillman2:58We've had. Some flashes here and there from Arsenal players in this tournament, but fair to say we haven't had a massive moment from an Arsenal player in this tournament. And obviously the knockouts have only just started, but huge, huge moment, I think, for Gabriel Martinelli and, listen, scoring a last minute winner in a World Cup knockout game for Brazil. It doesn't get much bigger than that.

Clive Palmer3:20You'll never have to buy a drink again, really, that's for sure. I think well, you know what, Tim, I learned this from you. Remember when you said w when Jesus was younger he went to World Cup and he didn't quite do it. Remember in those early days? And it affected him. I think it still affects him. That he ha didn't quite do it for his country. The flip side to that coin, isn't there? That you can grow confidence, you can grow something from being, someone that does something like this. And this is a big goal in recent Brazil history, better than I. So from that angle. When you see a young man do what he did, left his country very, very young to go and play his trade in Europe, go to Arsenal. As an under twenty one, gets into the first team and done what he's done with Saka, he's probably been one of the through lines through Mikel Arteta's project, hasn't he? And even though I get frustrated about his finishing on occasions and sometimes when his brain's not switched on, his story is a beautiful story, isn't it? It really is, it's a beautiful story and he's an Arteta player, works the system beautifully, As we all sit in here, right? We all want to evolve our attack. But we love all the players and we don't want to sell any of So we go Exactly. Can't sell him. Odegaard's getting assist,

Tim Stillman4:29Yeah, Leo Trossard getting two for Belgium against New Zealand, and that's we can't sell him now

Clive Palmer4:38Captain Norway, can't sell him, yeah. So this evolution of attack is gonna be so interesting when all the same players rock up, right? And then we can we just we can just rerun the podcast of last season, right? So, it's gonna be a challenge though, isn't it? Seriously though, it's a challenge. Evolution is sometimes painful. And how do we do it and how do we select it? And w as we record and right now, Morgan Rogers' price has gone up to a hundred and thirty million. And I bet everybody's thinking, So this let's just let's just keep what we have, 'cause that's just ridiculous, isn't it? So

Tim Stillman5:12Yeah, it is. And what's interesting for Martinelli as well, I was on the Askars last week and I said that I felt that Martinelli could get a place in this Brazil starting 11 because what they've done, because it's a Carlo team, right? He's gone, who's our best player? Vinicius Junia is our best player. If you're being unkind, you'd probably say he's the only top class player. So Ancelotti naturally, his question is, how do I platform him? And he's playing him very centrally, basically. In a bit of a 4-4-2 with Vinicius coming off the left but really doing that Thierry Henry thing where really he's the centre forward. And so what they've been doing is they've been playing Lucas Paketar on the kind of left wing as a bit of a left-sided central midfielder who goes over into that space. And I think there's two problems with that. One is that Lucas Paketar is quite an average player. He's playing for Flamengo at the moment, right? He's quite average for this level and he's being asked quite a big job. He's being asked to cover a lot of space and he's being asked to do that almost. You get this with creative players sometimes. What's the name of the Argentina players? Is it Rodrigo de Paul?

Tim Stillman6:26Who's basically his job for Argentina is to run around behind Messi and almost be like his NFL style blocker is like, you don't worry about running. I'll do your running for you type thing and you get that sometimes and Lucas Paketah even at his best is not that player and I said to Andrew I felt if Brazil are going to play a 4-4-2 just put Martinelli on the left wing there is no trouble with him going back in the other direction you don't have to worry about that and obviously Paketah went off injured in this game I really think Martinelli is going to start the next game for Brazil as a left winger in a 442 and that could be an interesting thing for Arteta to look at as well.

Clive Palmer7:11Yeah, I think well he can definitely do the left wing at four two, that's no doubt 'cause he's been scored to run up and down that line and if he lets a man go off his shoulder by one yard then he knows what's gonna happen when he goes to the dressing room. So that's not a problem. I think in this game, tell me if I'm if I'm wrong, I think the way they deployed him was almost like a left inside midfielder, as a left ten. And I'm thinking so during the game I was frustrated with Vinicius, so I'm thinking, come on yourself in the middle. But actually that's where the crowd scene is. And so by putting Martinelli in there as a deco that you have to watch and standing between two players and they're thinking, Who's got him? And you've got Vinicius on the outside, who's got him? And so it throws that side of the pitch defensively for Japan. Tom Yassi was in there. When they have a back five, sometimes with numbers you feel like someone else is there for you. And I thought they used Martinelli very cleverly to pin to allow the clear path of Vinicius to receive it and then he can get into s he's running. I thought it was all wrong. But then you see Vinicius make that beautiful s chance, that dribble, and then he hits a post. I'm thinking if I'm Vinicius, get yourself in the mixer, son. Come on, get in the middle, get in middle. To have the discipline to stay wide, knowing that you've got Martinelli to fix people so you can receive. I think that's genius, coaching. I really do. I we none of us would play Martinelli as a left midfielder. We wouldn't, right? Not when Vinicius is there, right? We wouldn't do it.

Clive Palmer8:37And he did and Martinelli are called so he can sniff out a chance and although I've just about got over Forest away, Tim, that chance he missed. Not that I've ever mentioned it on the podcast before. I think and I think I got over it tonight 'cause I'm pleased for him 'cause he's really he's really out.

Tim Stillman8:55Yeah, definitely. And you're right. I think it says a lot about Ancelotti's experience because everyone would have been saying bring Neymar on, bring Neymar on, bring Neymar on. And actually, I just find the selection of him incredibly strange. And there's something a little bit off about that. Having not selected him for two years and he's not even fit anyway.

Clive Palmer9:16Exactly. And Joe Pedro's on his holidays and I you must be thinking, What's this all about? Do you know what I mean?

Tim Stillman9:21Yeah, that's not a meritocracy and I wouldn't mind betting there's a story to come out about that. But anyway, yeah, to your point, Japan are playing a back five. So Brazil have basically gone, all right, we'll put five forwards on against your back five, we'll match you five for five and Martinelli, will buzz around. And the goal he scores, it's a real centre forwards goal. Mean. Do you still not to reignite talking points from 2021, but do you still, let's throw Elliot's little hand grenade in there. Do you see him in any scenario as a striker for Arsenal?

Clive Palmer10:01I think if we're having discussions right now, and I've had these thoughts myself, right? So so the two second strikers that we like, well we I say rebate on rumours, Kruppy and Alvarez. You're looking at if you're looking at comps, you're looking at probably them two. A second striker player that needs somebody else to play. So Endric was playing centre forward in this game. So he wasn't playing striker. Endric was playing striker. And so Alvarez has, is it Soroth or Griezman with him next to him, right? And and so and Krupi has I wanna say Evan Ilsen up front, doesn't he, for Bournemouth? And so that second striker role, that stri that free player, that's not a ten, that's not a nine, but buzzes around and is a sharpshooter. He can do that. Remember Tossard did it for us for a year or so ago, didn't he, for a little while?

Tim Stillman10:49Yep, when her God was out.

Clive Palmer10:51Exactly. We went into t into our pairs, really distinct pairs with Havertz thing. And I and he can definitely do that. He can definitely be a four two wide man. He's the one that I wanna sell all sometimes, you know what I'm like, and get new players in. But he's the one that I did read something, I just thought it was really sensible that they may renegotiate his contract and say, Look, you're now a squad player, you're not the sacker player we thought you're gonna be. Extend it but maybe lower the wage. If that happened, I would not be disappointed. 'Cause I just think there's a player in there that knows us and we know him. And there's so many games now. It's just and he's quite robust, and so I know I'm be bit of a softie there. But and I do get annoyed when I th when he lacks IQ and but I also remember the times when he's buried himself to make sure we win a game, on countless occasions. So that'd be a hard one to if he would accept that, I would accept it. But

Clive Palmer11:53As a centre forward, I'm n I've just never seen that in the Arsenal system because we tend to want somebody bigger, stronger. If you go force ninety it's like Merino, somewhere with a stature because we play in the English Premier League. But there's no there's no doubt when he comes out to inter central areas he looks like a centre forward, isn't he? But his starting position needs to be slightly off for somebody else in my opinion.

Tim Stillman12:16Yeah, I completely agree. And just to wrap up, just because we were just watching the Brazil game, right? And Gabriel comes out with an assist as well for Casemiro. This is probably how Arsenal pilled. Am Clive, but Brazil have got Gabriel. And to be fair, they've got Casemiro, who I think scored seven or eight headed goals this season. They have probably got the two biggest set piece threats. From the Premier League, which let's face it, became the Set Piece League. Am I going mad? Have I just been too arsenal-pilled that the corners that they were taking made me want to rip my arm off and throw it at the TV? And I guess, what does it show as well about, I don't want to go too much into what idiots on the internet say, but the delivery of rice and sacca is just such an enormous part. Of the story that's not really told, I think.

Clive Palmer13:17Honestly, we take it for granted, Tim, and I know where you sit in the ground, but let me tell you where I sit. I sit over the corner flag in the North Bank End, so I see Rice's corner second half. Mate, he is unbelievable. The quality of those I see them, I see the bend on them. I just expect it now. In fact if he hits a first man, it'll just be I'll be throwing my season ticket back over the side, it's like a it's and when you see other teams you just realise this ain't so i this ain't easy this. The balls flying up in the air, going like it's just it's just we just take it for granted. And yeah, to be fair to Casimir, it's all those people deleting tweets when he was got runabout in the first time and then he stays on the pitch, doesn't get but gets off just in time at the end with Yug Rigor Mortis in the lower part of his body. And then but he gets the equaliser and it the way he shaped his body was just a goal, wasn't it? He just a goal and yeah, football mate. Just hold them tweets sometimes, right? You never know. You never know. Rio Ferdinand was criticizing Gabriel for not closing down the first goal. And everyone else has retired Casemiro in the first half. Second half what happens? Gabriel sweeps it to the back post like Daddy Spurkamp and Casemiro heads it in and that's football, right? Just hold your hold your tweets back. Hold them back.

Tim Stillman14:35I've always had this theory about players who get on the end of crosses or to get on the end of crosses usually make good crosses I used to think about Ian Wright if you go back and look at there's a goal Bergkamp scores in North London Derby November 96 it's quite a famous goal where he gets the ball on the back post and Yeah, yeah touches inside

Clive Palmer14:53Recoist it back Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Tim Stillman14:57And it's it's Ian Wright who delivers that cross and right he could cross a ball because he knew what he wants hit on a delivery.

Clive Palmer15:05You know what, that is so that is so typical of you, right? 'Cause I was at that game. And I remember the sh the touch and the and the shot. And it's an important goal. I remember the celebration. But Tim Stillman remembers the bloke who crossed it. So fair play, yeah.

Tim Stillman15:22Yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah, and I think just on Arsenal set piece delivery, it reminds me of something I think Billy Carpenter tweeted last week and he was talking about the way Harry Kane strikes a ball and he's saying there are loads of players, well not loads, but there are some players who can strike the ball as well as him, but it's the consistency with which the contact is close to perfect. And I think the same about Rice in particular from corners, Sacka from corners like I don't think they're the only players in the Premier League that can do that, but they're the only players that do it, dead on, basically every single time.

Clive Palmer15:59Yeah. I actually got involved with Billy in that conversation. He didn't ask me, but I just got involved anyway. And and because I watch the training videos of England as well, religiously. Right? 'Cause you 'cause what you see, you see the elite players in the country playing against each other. So when you like your player, then you see him in that environment, mate, you see him in that environment. They reveal all

Tim Stillman16:21The Rondos, they reveal all.

Clive Palmer16:24So I've seen Smith Rowe maybe struggle in England training and I could see it, right? I seen Kobe Maneu struggle in England training about year two years ago. I've also seen Harry Kane shooting drills when Ramsdale was in goal. I'm not joking to him. He wasn't even diving, mate. He wasn't even diving. When a shot's so good, you just think you just wave it in. And that was happening to all the goalkeepers. And I'm thinking, geez, does it. And I wanna hate him. You know what I mean? I want to hate him. He's and but you can't. It's just pure, pure technique and striking. He's doing it with he's got a cigarette in his hand. Honestly, it's just perfect. And these top players really got top, top skills. Top.

Tim Stillman17:06Yeah, and speaking of top players and top skills and all of that, we haven't really had a chance to catch up about the World Cup so far, just in general. How have, I've very much the group stage been a bit pick and mix. For me, I've not really been watching any of the games that are on early hours of the morning in the UK. And that's been fine with me, to be honest. First of all. Think it's really the first World Cup. Can remember the time zone being genuinely just not great for the UK. That's not a complaint. It's observation because I remember the 94 World Cup and most of the games, almost all of the games were actually, obviously there are far fewer games to fit in, but they were all at about 9pm English time. I really remember that. Then there was France, Japan and South Korea. They run in the morning, but not like early hours, was 7, 8am and then pretty much everything has been pretty kind to a kind of to a Western European audience but I'm I've been fine with that as well Clive because the first World Cup game was 10 days after the Champions League final I was a bit footballed out I wasn't there was no run-up to the World Cup I didn't really get a chance to get excited before for it because it started before I'd even really thought about it so

Tim Stillman18:31I've been okay with treating the group stage a bit like I'll watch one game a day and that will do me. But what, how has your experience of watching the world cup been so far?

Clive Palmer18:42Yeah, I've been trying to keep my head down really online as much as I can, because I feel quite similar, I feel like my heart is full. It's full of joy, it's full of, reaching the mountain top with Arsenal after many, many years. I didn't even realise there's that many years and you're just watching the Arsenal world explode and that feeling does not leave you in two minutes, right? It's a it's a life moment, right? And life memories with people that you've well particularly you travel around the country with, for many, many years. Travel around Europe with. So, and so yeah, that's really had an impact on me and I'm still I'm still working my way through that emotionally. The World Cup comes along and so it's like I don't almost want to hold back some thoughts. You have the political run up to the to the whole tournament and you think I see it's feeling negative. But actually, what it's shown me is and everybody else, forty eight countries in a tournament in a c in three countries hosting with very disparate, diverse communities and you just have the world in one place. That's what it feels like. And when you have the world in one place over one game, you see some beautiful things, and you're seeing communities come together, you're seeing countries come together, and that's what sport can do. And and I've I've looked at it not with my analytical head on so much, but much more

Clive Palmer20:07On what football can do for people, and what it can do for their well being, their health, how they feel about themselves, how they feel about their country, how they feel about their players. And just l watching people enjoy themselves, what is the Scottish fans absolutely turned Boston into part of Scotland. And just that's that's just a unbelievable thing that you're seeing. And 'cause now we have such a greater view is with our phones and social media, etc. We can see so much more. And that's really, really joyous. So it's been a joyous time from a football fan's perspective. I'm trying to ignore some of the quality of the games. I'm trying to ignore some of the things that and who the players are playing for, because I just don't want to go there. There football can give you a lot more than just analysing it like we do when you when it's for something that we are obsessed about, And so by not being obsessive, you can see the game in different ways and you can just see the trends where the game is going. How each country views international football. Then there's the FIFA angle of how they are almost creating a product which is FIFA aligned, which doesn't align to the European game. Do I get upset about that or accept that FIFA are now gonna have this going forward? Because they've got their deals with their TV companies, etc. Etc. And so we're almost creating another sport that's appearing here, and then we have to decide.

Clive Palmer21:35As fans and fans are trying to boo this out, particularly when we talk about playing in four quarters, are we gonna accept the change to a sport like this? Are we affecting the soul of the game? Technology's affected the soul of the game as we know. Now we're chang changing the timing of a game. Could you imagine if we had the basketball world championships over here and we decided we're not gonna play twelve minute quarters. We're gonna play twenty four minute halves. Could you could you just imagine it and what people would do? They would go crazy, wouldn't they? And this is what we're doing by stealth and it's a concern, but it's not a concern as long as we don't do it in the Premier League. But I think that's where my head is at the moment. Just trying to enjoy the whole community angle of it and try not to get too angry about the obvious changes which are occurring,

Tim Stillman22:25Yeah, I was going to come on to that, actually, the impact of the ad breaks. I'm not going to call them hydration breaks because I think that insults people's intelligence to call it that. It's quite Orwellian language from FIFA to say that. They're ad breaks. And I think everyone's adult enough to realise that. And I think, off, it's worth stating that I think in some quarters this has been mischaracterised as an American thing. And I don't think it is. It's a FIFA thing. And I think the local public, the locals are telling you what they think of it as well. And, I, I, had, there was a really good discussion on Libero podcast about this. They were talking about, first of all, the four quarters that we've got now with the ad breaks, but also they were talking about some of the impacts of the format now, meaning you get these weird situations where Scotland have to wait four days to see if they've gone out. And actually in the group stages, you lose, particularly in the first few groups, you lose that immediate emotional payoff where a team finishes a game and they don't know whether they're through for another three days. And add that to the ad breaks. And they were talking, they described it as the VARification of football, delaying everything.

Tim Stillman23:49Build it, instead of having instant emotional payoff, delaying everything, having suspense. And that's if I'm going to describe it charitably. Because, you get that counter argument sometimes about VAR saying, people like me would say it takes the drama and the emotion out of the moment. People would counter that. I don't think it's a ridiculous point at all to say, actually, adds a bit to the drama because maybe you get to celebrate the goal twice or maybe we experienced at West Ham, you think you've conceded a goal and you haven't and it adds to the drama. Well, yeah, yeah.

Clive Palmer24:19Think your heart stopped.

Tim Stillman24:23Once I once I got off the defibrillator. But you're right, I think there's something fundamental here about changing the sport, having the AR having quite complicated permutations where we don't actually know what's happened for a few days. Having these kind of ad breaks built in. I think you're right, there's quite a few things that changing. But the thing I'm quite interested in is I feel like the whole ad break thing went over our heads a little bit when it was first announced. It was like, that, cause initially Clive, I thought, yeah, it probably is going to be about 30, 35 degrees or something. It's probably an ad break by the back door, but it will probably be needed. So fair enough. But actually we've seen pretty mild weather. To this point in the World Cup and it's really exposed the fact that these aren't really hydration breaks. FIFA, they've said, well, actually we don't benefit from this financially. Not true.

Tim Stillman25:29But they were saying, well, actually we've got to do it for all of the games or none of the games. Mean, what kind

Clive Palmer25:35No, you haven't.

Tim Stillman25:36Of impact do you think you've seen from these ad breaks? I guess from a coach's point of view as well, let's not get into the kind of complaining about it because I sense I think people will be able to guess my views on it. But

Clive Palmer25:48Yeah.

Tim Stillman25:49What about the impact on the actual game?

Clive Palmer25:52Well I think the game itself needs to be stronger, but obviously this is this is FIFA's game, right? So there needs to be red lines that you just hold to. And I think that how long a game lasts and ha and its construct has been in place, my mate, you're the historian. As long as I can remember we paid forty five minute halves, right? So and so now we're not really doing that, right? So if we have introduced a break for drinks, it's been because of extreme weather, which everyone's agreed with. I think we did in COVID. I remember in Kobe we did it, I can't remember the exact reasons, but we did it in COVID just and it and what we did then, I remember it 'cause people were starting to get upset with it 'cause Arteta was brilliant at the ad break sorry, the breaks, the hydration breaks then. Yeah. And because every time we came out after a drinks break, we turned the game around. So they almost wanted to stop it, remember? And I remember thinking and I have had discussions in the past about coaches' influence sometimes I like to see coaches have more influence, particularly around use of VAR, maybe have a challenge or things like that. But I'm not expecting a three, four minute gap in the middle of a game, which is scheduled regardless of the weather. I think England played one game and it was nineteen degrees and raining and the and Alan Shear was looking for a jacket because he was cold. And we got on the hydration break on so come on, what are we doing? So so yeah, there should be red lines. But it's gonna be interesting to see how you waive that.

Clive Palmer27:19Acts now and the European game acts in the Premier League games act. I think you said something I think it was you Tim that said that some parts of South African America are already doing this anyway. Having breaks in the game. So we are starting to see different types of game. My feeling is right now I'm holding I'm holding back any sort of anger because I need to save my anger for when one of us sent the midstum passed the ball to another player for players for House the Football Club. And then we lose the game that really matters to us that we're not top of the league. I need to save my anger for that. That's what really matters. And this we have to realise is a little bit over there. It's a bit over there. And it's the it's the coming of the new game. With VAR, technology was always coming and technology's improving. It's getting quicker and the AI pictures of off sides look beautiful and they're gonna get better and better and better. And we're gonna look back in a few years' time and wonder how the hell did we start like this? We are. It's gonna get sharper and quicker. And that's just technology. It gets better all the time, And so that's we can't stop that. We can't stop it. How it's implemented and where it's used, it's only gonna grow. But this changing the game into four cores is something we can stop. And it needs to stop. It really does.

Tim Stillman28:36Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it's what you said there about I wonder what UEFA will do. Well, at the moment, the relationship between UEFA and FIFA is very, if you ask mum and she says no, and you go and ask dad, UEFA is like dad at the moment. So UEFA, for example, they did the fans first prices for the Champions League final. My Champions League final ticket. Cost about 40 % of what my home tickets cost for Champions League knockout ties. It was 60 euros. And that was a bit of good PR because, there was loads of bad PR about FIFA's World Cup prices. So UEFA just went, we'll do a nice cheap price. And then, what have they done for the Super Cup final? The Somalian referee that was denied entry to the US, he's refereeing the Super Cup final. So UEFA do seem to have this kind of. Little bit of a PR war with FIFA. So I wouldn't mind betting that the lack of popularity of this means you wafer for certain.

Clive Palmer29:40Not gonna do it.

Tim Stillman29:41They will announce that they're not doing it for a bit of PR. I imagine, mean, with the Premier League as well, do you, you can't, how would you sell a hydration break in December at

Clive Palmer29:51You can't tell it.

Tim Stillman29:53Leeds away? It's, it's not going to fly, is it really? So I'm reasonably optimistic. That it won't happen and I'm really happy that the fans in the stadiums have made their feelings known about it, particularly in such a compressed timeline like a World Cup, because that happened with VAR, fans began to, the FVAR chants and you don't hear those anymore. I'd still join in with them, but it's been seven years like it, that anger dissipates, whereas in a World Cup, there's a really unique kind of it's three weeks, we're gonna keep booing this for three weeks so that it never infects our game. Why don't we take a little bit of a hydration break there, which we do not benefit from financially. We do, we have adverts. So we're gonna stop for a word from our sponsor. And in the second half, we're gonna talk a little bit about the links with Bruno Guimarães and a little bit about some of the behind the scenes changes at.

Tim Stillman30:53Arsenal around sports, science and medicine. Here's an ad read from Elliot and we'll be back in part two with some of that good stuff.

Tim Stillman32:13Okay, welcome back from our hydration break, which we in no way financially benefit from. Here with Tim Stillman and Clive Palmer doing a little bit of World Cup chat, a little bit of Arsenal chat, a little bit of transfer chat. It's still relatively thin, gruel, Arsenal-wise, but some stuff has come out in the last few days, Clive, for us to get our teeth into. And one of them are links with, we were talking about Brazil earlier. Well, a guy who passed the ball quite nicely to Gabriel Martinelli in the last minute against Japan, Bruno Guimarães. A player I think it's fair to say Arsenal have admired for a long time. Both, yeah, when he was in Brazil, I think Edu really wanted to bring him to the club when he was at Lyon. We were very heavily linked. Very, very substantial stories. It really looks like the interest is there, whether there is a mutually agreeable price point. Maybe that's a little bit more up in the air, but I think the quality of the player isn't in doubt Clive, but are you surprised given that he's nearly 29 years old that this is the player we're looking at?

Clive Palmer33:23Think Tim at the moment I'm looking at all the rumours. I've learnt from last year that Bertha, the way he operates, he gets loads of people into our into our timelines and then he picks the one and we all say, Yeah, I knew he was gonna go for that one. And but then you look at the player and I ask myself a question with the centre means what question are we trying to answer? Right, so are we trying to ensure that when Declan Rice's back breaks we've got somebody else with a personality that can be in our midfield? Are we really trying to develop four midfielders, maybe lose one, four midfielders of top quality to play the sixty-three games that we need to play? Are we trying to add another personality into the team? Because I think we lack a little bit of on ball personality. And he's definitely not shy, is he? He's got a lot of that. And potentially, and it depends what you read, there could be a little bit of clause in there if he's not in the Champions League that keeps it around a price. Which feels reasonable at the moment given how every other price is just doubling as we speak. And so if the price is right, the player's right, to be honest to him, despite my natural hatred for Newcastle and players like him charging around trying to kick our players. Let's just close your eyes and dismiss that for a second. He plays our football, doesn't he? And that's the truth of it. And he wants and where we've lacked potentially, and that's from all of our midfielders,

Clive Palmer34:48Is that pass into the last line being the thing that you are judged on and he really does it without fear, and I think that could change a little bit how we play. So I think for me it's something I've been thinking about me and when you're climbing a mountain to try to reach a goal, what's really interesting me more than almost the players we're linked to is how we're gonna reset. How are we gonna reset and say to ourselves how are we going do this again? How are we going to what face are we going to show? What margins are left for us? What size of club are we now? Given the fact I read something from someone prominent on Twitter that we both know that on one day I think you made eleven million pounds in one day on retail alone from the shop. Come on, mate, this is something we've been about me and you, right? We've seen a few things. This is not something we've seen before. This club is exploding and the real details of that have not been realised yet. So what do you do when you reach this crossroads? Do you say, Do I continue to be who we've been? And buy an eighteen year old sent a mid and make our own superstars and say, Hold on a minute, we're already a superstar club. We can now maybe go up a few steps of the ladder and really stay there. And this is our moment to really do that. I think this is the most interesting summer strategically

Clive Palmer36:15And how we position ourselves that we've ever had. And we've never done this right. Even when we were the best team in the world in two thousand and four, we should have won European Cup that year, it, Tim, and we were undefeated. At no point was I thinking we should just go and get everybody and we're gonna be the I'm just gonna continue. I just thought this would be awesome. We'll just kids we just keep going until we lost a few of those players, kept a few too long, and ended up with a financial situation with new ground, and we had a set of play every single season for next. Eight years. Right. So we blew our moment, right? Some of it was things that we'd committed to financially, but we blew our moment. We've got another moment here right now where let's be honest, if we're not in the same final order final champions league next year, we're all gonna be gutted. Right? The Madrid the Madrid flights will be out soon. And so this is where we are. So this how have you thought about this yet? What this moment in our history I think is huge. By what we do next. Where's your head? Where's your head?

Tim Stillman37:18Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you. I think it's something historically Arsenal have pretty much always failed to do, which is win the league and go right. Actually, to be fair, if I really look at it historically, I think that was maybe a slight failing of some of the Wenger teams. Whereas when I look back like 1991, what do we do after we win the league in 1991? We sign Ian Wright. Pretty aggressive move. We broke

Clive Palmer37:48Yep, fair. Yep.

Tim Stillman37:50The British transfer record. Actually, if you go back to 71, we signed Alan Ball after winning the double in 71. Now that actually really unbalanced the team. He was a superb player, probably the best English midfielder. It just didn't work for who Arsenal were at that moment in time, but it was an aggressive move. They went out and bought one of the best players in the country. So they have, but I feel like the last few times, the summer of 98, there are a couple of players we nearly got Kleivert, we wouldn't go to the Salary, we nearly got the De Boer twins, we wouldn't go to the Salary, that kind of thing. And you look back and we lost the league by one point the next season and you just think, if you'd had just gone to Kleivert's Salary, we'd probably win it and United never win the treble and stuff like that. I think you're right. Think, there's been a lot of talk, which I think was reasonably obvious for Arsenal fans, but was it James and the Athletic, they wrote that piece about Arsenal were very much working towards this being their window, the kind of post-clop, post-pep and yeah,

Clive Palmer39:02Yeah, twenty four to twenty seven, I think he wrote, was a th that three year window to win.

Tim Stillman39:06Yeah, absolutely. And you look at it at the moment and. Yeah, all of our rivals are in some level. And listen, Maresca could be brilliant at City, Iriola could be immediately brilliant at Liverpool, Alonso could be brilliant at Chelsea. There's some unknowns there, but we don't control that. But I'd be looking at it and I'd say we've got a group of players between 25 and 28. And potentially, potentially we haven't got a like a pepsi. City who could go to 9500 points or Klopp's Liverpool who could do the same. If one of those teams emerges, fair enough, but at the moment they're not there. So I think we're right to be aggressive in this moment and I think whether we get Bruno or not Clive, what that tells me is we want a midfielder and I think there's not too much I look at in this squad because it's a big squad. And I like pretty much all of the players to differing extents. There's very few I look at and go, you're an absolute clown. I don't want you or sell immediately or anything like that. I was on with Elliot last week, I ended up defending Gyokeres saying I wouldn't get rid. I've become a new man. It's funny what the Premier League trophy does to your opinions on these things. I do think if you're looking at a couple of positions of.

Tim Stillman40:32Obviously, can we bring the quality level of the forward line up? I think that's probably the biggest question. But if you're looking for a little weakness somewhere, there aren't many. But it does feel like that midfield, listen, it was all right at the end because we put Myles in that that could have bombed like we had. We had no real way of knowing we could have put Myles in. He could have completely sank. He didn't. And reasonably fortunate. But, we played Supermendy into the ground. I think a lot of that was down to Merino being injured as well. I think that was a big miss in our squad, but that is a place I think you look at in midfield and go, we're good, but we're very far from perfect there. So whether it's Bruno or not, well, that tells me Clibbers, they're looking to strengthen in that area.

Clive Palmer41:22Yeah, I think we need we need to offer something else in there. Just a different personality in there. I think personality is the word to him. We know people say that, gotta play a bit more personality. There was a brilliant clip actually where Clarence Seedoff was talking Declan Rice and he said, I really like him, I really like him. But sometimes he's a he can be a bit timid and I went, Bingo none of us are gonna swap him, right? He's twenty seven and he's improving by them by the week, right? And the only thing with the only issue with him is he probably plays too many games, right? So, but he the next level for him is to not be timid. Right? And whether you like Bruno or not, he's not timid. And Zubimendi is a highly technical quality player that's got a lot of bounce and drive. When he's tired, he's timid. What did we like about Myles when he came in? He showed a bit of personality, didn't he? He came in and he showed a bit of personality and go forward. I think if we look at that area, that's what we need. We need a bit more people that say, Gimme that freaking ball, right? I'm gonna take care of it. Now that's I actually don't think that's too difficult and when you see the link you think that makes a lot of sense. And I see a Scott graph and I see the progressive graph progressive past his line and I'm and I'm sold, right? So suddenly he's not twenty nine, he's twenty two. And but there is there is I saw Tom wrote a great article today about the ages of some of our centimets. But then again, at the moment in time

Clive Palmer42:50We've got a massive target on our back. And I'm thinking to myself, mate, come on, stand up and front up for what's coming. So I think the centre mid will take care of itself. But the area where we really all need to improve is in the forward areas, right? And and we have a Gabriel Jesus, we have a very, very good Trossard coming in their thirties, thirty age. And if you've got twenty eight and twenty-nine and you're all midfielders you have to have youthfulness up front, and Bakayasaka's looking about thirty two at the moment until he has a rest. And so we've just re-found Kai, we've just re found Gyokeres. I think they're fine. But I see I wanna see two younger players coming to the forward line that really give us some punch and fear factor. Right. You can choose who you want. And and we have to be prepared to evolve and it's really tough, right? Bruno Guimarães comes in full of personality and gimme the ball, that maybe takes a little bit away from Martin Odegaard, who was the previous guy that says give me the ball with a bit of personality. Is that something people are comfortable with? Not everyone is, right? Not everyone's comfortable selling Gabriel Martinelli tonight. Absolutely no chance, right? Trust us, I've been the best Belgian player in the World Cup. I don't want to see him go anywhere. Can we keep him maybe let him go in a free? And you're caught in this fifty position, but if we're serious and we're looking around our competitive landscape,

Clive Palmer44:18They are starting to stack up with players. And none of them want to see how to have a period of domination. No chance, mate. Alonso's looking he's gonna go to a back free system, he's looking at centre backs and wing backs, and the ones he's getting I really like. I think flipping hell, he's not being stupid. Suddenly Chelsea are changing their strategy and buying people over the age of fourteen. This isn't good. Only offering eight million quid for him, but it's not good, is it? So and so I'm so looking forward to you the Arteta First interview when he comes back and he really lays out the mission statement if you're really if you're listening closely. I want to hear the mission statement for what we're trying to do. I want to hear the reset messages. Cause I think I it's something that any high performance team model, this is the moment in your time, in your in your growth cycle that you really need to focus on to reset people's minds about what you want to achieve next. Because we've all been in the same place. We've all been aligned. Now you've achieved it. Now what? Ha wh what do we do now? I think this is a really important time to

Tim Stillman45:26Yeah, it's a little bit to use a love island analogy. It's a little bit, a new blonde has entered the villa. Sometimes you've got to keep people on their toes after they've after they've done something. But I think the other thing I like about the Bruno links as well is that one of it, it's almost addressing a problem that hasn't come up yet, which is what on earth would we look like without Declan Rice for a month, two months? Because because we the odd game he's been out and that's it and I watched England play without him the other night and it stuck out like a sore thumb didn't it and so

Clive Palmer46:02How'd it feel? Everyone running about after the ball, wouldn't they? It's like big spaces everywhere. Mate. Mate. Suddenly he's scrambling around

Tim Stillman46:09Yeah, exactly. Elliot Anderson didn't look so serene like I saw, his hair was out of place, running off.

Clive Palmer46:17After the ball, wouldn't he? Sprinting to the side. Everyone sprinting left and right. And I'm thinking Declan stops all of that stuff before it starts. Crunch over. And we've got the ball going the other way. And what a player we have, mate. What a player we have.

Tim Stillman46:32Yeah, absolutely and it would be scary hours without him. I think he's one of those players in the squad. Same for England, there aren't many of those players. And so, bringing another really high quality midfielder in, I think makes a lot of sense. It's the one area where if you discount Nohr guards, it's probably numbers wise, where we could do with a bit of a boost by one. I'm going to finish on some changes that have happened behind the scenes. So we've already seen Club Doctor. They gave him they gave him the Champions League final. They gave him the parade. Did you enjoy the open top bus? Got your medal? Here's your P45 off you go. Yeah. Nothing, nothing urgent for.

Clive Palmer47:15Yeah. Come into the office Monday morning for a quick little catch up and suddenly Nothing goes and give you a cardboard box.

Tim Stillman47:284.30 p.m. And your car parking space has gone and you've been called into the office. But club doctors gone, we've heard that they're gonna bring in really interesting a rehab specialist from Real Betis and today news has emerged that Tom Allen, who was I believe our head of sports science and has been around for quite a long time at the club, but that he's gonna go as well. That's all emerged. What is the day today? Monday, day of recording. And so again, not that I think any of us were in any doubt about how seriously Arteta and co were going to treat the, we're talking about what, how can we fix things on the pitch and the transfer market? But if we bought nobody Clive, but we had a really good injury record next season, I think we'd go and win it again. Basically that's where I am. So what have you made of, the changes behind the scenes and obviously we only know so much about that stuff but I hesitate to say the brutality of it or the ruthlessness of it because it's just business but it seems like again not a surprise that this feels like as much as transfers this feels like something Arsenal really want to try and address ahead of next season and future seasons

Clive Palmer48:55Yeah, absolutely. And if you look at I said earlier about what are our margins, this is one of our margins, isn't it? And I think we were second in the injury table last year after Spurs. And look where Spurs was seventeenth and we managed to win it. And we all know we were all watching games with sometimes we were struggling with players getting through warm ups for goodness sake, and so this is an area of improvement. Look, I'm no doctor, I don't want to say this person's bad, this person's bad. But if you're looking at the club from thirty thousand feet, we have an area where we need to have the very, very best in the world. Back to my point earlier on, you have to ask yourself, where are the margins if you want to get better? What habits have we previously done that we need to improve on? Because we need to get better. Is our mission statement we want to be the best team in the world? If it is, then we have to look at all the areas where we can improve and this one's staring me in the face. And I just think th it's time for us to have that thought process and I think reviewing things like this is so key. We've had operations on hamstrings, we had three in one season, that cost us the league, let's be honest. We'll have been the best team for the last two years. That cost us league, we had no continuity and our best players were just not there. Sometimes the injuries are unfortunate, particularly

Clive Palmer50:14Bone breaks on feet, etcetera, and Kai Havertz's knee the bang a at Old Trafford. Bit unfortunate. But there's something here, isn't there? And the first time I realised not the first time, but w when Aaron Ramsdale went, remember? And they brought Raya in, sorry, and Ramsdale was demoted. I'm thinking, come on, man, that's a bit that's a bit harsh. A bit harsh. And their messages coming out of the club saying but we want to get better in everything that we do. And it's like, okay, they're serious. And even someone they love, if they can find something better, they're gonna do it. It's the same for this. I think they just wanna get better. There are rumours of a little bit of a lack of alignment between the doctors and the and the head of sports science about our recovery strategies, etcetera. I've read that before historically. And but to see them both go. Tells you this is a true root and branch review. So the head of sports science is gone, the l the lead doctor's gone and

Tim Stillman51:21Head of performance Sam Wilson also gone.

Clive Palmer51:24Which we all know him, don't we? And he's the sort of player that w goes over to Spain with players and helps someone get fit, etcetera, etcetera. These are well known faces in the club and they've gone to f to do the things elsewhere. And these are people with good quality C Vs, so so we're doing we look at the margin state. We're looking at this. We're looking to get better. And I'll be so interested to see what we end up doing. With Academy's another angle. We're looking to do work there with the young players coming in. There's potential new head of academy coming out the blue co world. And so yeah. We c we can't if you look at your business from afar and you have pillars that you want to s do well by strength and conditioning medical would be one pillar, wouldn't it? And your academy would be another. Yeah, and you've got to look at this and say, if you want to maintain this, you have to look at everything and say I'm in I'm in this mode at the moment, much more in my leadership organizational excellence mode back in my corporate life because I think that's what we need to do. We can't mess about. Yeah and it's a bit sad for 'cause we recognise the faces, but I'm glad we're not resting on our laurels, right? Because old habits won't get you anywhere, right?

Tim Stillman52:40Yeah, definitely in Sam's report, says the departures arrive as part of a review involving external medical expert Joaquin Essado, who has a relationship with manager Mikel Arteta, originating back to when the pair worked together at Everton. I always find it fascinating with Arteta as well how far he's prepared to go back in his playing career. Even people like when Steve Round was on the staff and Albert Stoy, clearly he was thinking about his coaching career so so many years before it happened and Gabriel Ainsler and people like that that he knew from his playing days But the fact that they've they brought in someone to do an external review Albeit, someone who's close to Arteta But again that strikes me as the mature thing to do because maybe Arteta maybe he's getting frustrated Maybe he has opinions, but he's not a medical expert really So getting someone else to head that review Sounds pretty sensible. We were just talking about midfielders. I literally went on Sammy Mockbell's Twitter feed to find that. He's saying 11 minutes ago that Arsenal have made an inquiry for Alex Scott from Bournemouth as well, which has been rebuffed, which again, that buttresses the conversation we've just had right in terms of Arsenal clearly looking for a player there. They're clearly looking. Think Alex Scott is another player, Clive, quite different to Bruno, maybe. But you talk about personality.

Clive Palmer54:07Got it.

Tim Stillman54:07That's someone who you watch Bournemouth and. Yeah.

Clive Palmer54:10Did you wa remember the game what he did to us at the Emirates team? Did you w remember that game? 'Cause w we watch our team, don't we? But you couldn't miss him, could you, mate, on that day. No chance.

Tim Stillman54:19He's a very give me the ball, give me the ball, give me the ball type player who wants lots and lots of touches. So yeah, think all of that really tracks and I think we can see that probably Morgan Rodgers, maybe one of Bruno or Alex Scott, don't anticipate would do a whole lot more than that. In the summer

Clive Palmer54:40Mm I think

Tim Stillman54:41It'd be. Based on sales, but I was going to ask you in closing, Clive, about Ethan Lanieri, because he's someone who potentially, I think with the interest in someone like Morgan Rogers, I don't really see a place for him. We've seen that his little brother, Emerson, is going to leave the club and there's some rumours. I don't know how true they are. They feel speculative. I don't know how well informed that perhaps the family are a little bit fed up, but. Yeah, a little bit on maybe Alex Scott and a little bit on Ethan to finish.

Clive Palmer55:16Yeah, I think the Alex Scott Bruno things, they're they're probably the one of he's one of the two. But again, the prices are ridiculous at the moment. So let's see w what happens there. I remember watching Alex Scott Bristol actually, Bristol City and he paid for under twenty ones a few times. I thought he's quite nice. I wasn't sure what he was, if he a ten or an eight. That's a little step over, but really good player, but the Emirates changed my mind to him completely. Top player, and he's only twenty two and he'll be in the England squad going forward. Once they finally let Jordan Henderson sit down, he'll be in the England squad next time on the next cycle. I think with Myles, let's go to Myles first. If Myles is now in midfielder to him, I think we may need one more defender into the group to make it eight defenders. So that'd be interesting to see what we do there. Is it a righty or a lefty? But I think we need to do something there, potentially for me, to make sure because we've got some pillars here that are creaking, sleepers creaking.

Tim Stillman56:12Yeah, Hand of Arsenal put out a tweet today where he said that they were looking at some situations at centre back, even someone like Ezri Konsa. It does feel a bit like some of those players we're told who've gone to the World Cup with some injuries. We seem to be looking at players in their positions.

Clive Palmer56:30Exactly. Ezre Conto mate, he's one of Saka's and Eze's best mates,

Tim Stillman56:34Best mate isn't he?

Clive Palmer56:35Right? And that did not surprise me at all, pension his contractual situation. To that'd be an interesting one. I think hey look, I'd love to get Morgan Rogers out of Villa but that price just looks stupid at the moment. Let's see what happens there. I love Krupi at Bournemouth, really like him, but again, let's see what happens there. But as for Ethan now, the h the whole family situation, that rumour's been out there for quite a while that he's even his last contract, it was a little bit of a struggle. No, the one before the last one was a bit of a struggle when he was really young. Then the last one when he was late and there's rumors of him going to Germany last summer, but he signed, stayed on. Not sure what happened with the January. Was this a club saying, Look, go and play or was this the player saying I want to go and play? I've heard things from both sides, so rather not speculate. But he's ended up missing out on something special and as soon as he walked out of the door marine I broke his foot. So he must be thinking, Craike, could I have stayed and really been here at a really special time? And he wasn't properly included in that, so which is a real shame for him. So I'm wondering if the Pure Prophet angle's gonna see that one end up somewhere else. And again, it comes back to evolution. We can't just keep spending without selling, right? And I watched Ben White

Clive Palmer57:56Pictures come out, he's in Portugal doing a bit and on his holidays. As soon as I see him running, I think, I don't want him to go. Why just keep him for one more year?

Tim Stillman58:04But that also feels a bit like that feels like something players do when maybe they're looking at a move or yeah,

Clive Palmer58:13Is a club? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Stillman58:14Yeah, a little bit like the six packs still there, yeah.

Clive Palmer58:17And I can run. Last time you saw me I had a knee brace on, forget that, I can now run and my tans tip top, so so yeah, I think yeah, at the moment in time we're at this stage in our Arsenal supporting lives where we love everybody at the moment. But we also realise as soon as we see the ball moving across the grass, we're gonna get back into where can we improve mode? We need to evolve just ahead of the pack. At this moment in time I'm not comfortable with some of those conversations. But I know we have to do it. And this isn't playground. People want us, mate. They wanna take us apart. They wanna put us back into the bottle. You know what I mean? Literally, and so we've got to be prepared to take the next step. And I think we are because there's not a lot of compassion at the top end of elite sport. I don't care. It's not a charity, right? So, so yeah, looking forward to it.

Tim Stillman59:12Absolutely, and I think that is a good point to finish not least because I've got a little view of my TV from here and I can see Germany v. Paraguay and hoping to see I'm pure Kai Havertz watch. That's all it is. I didn't get my fill last season. So

Clive Palmer59:25Is that the World Cup we don't care about? Yeah, exactly. Me too, me too.

Tim Stillman59:35We'll leave it there for this episode. Obviously, we'll be back with another episode probably on Thursday obviously do check out our World Cup daily presented by Michael Timbs over on Patreon. We'll be doing other Patreon content. We've been doing loads of director of football type content. I've done a history episode. I will do some more during the summer Clive. We should do a one club very, very soon. I'm expecting

Clive Palmer59:57We should because there's lots happening in that world and

Tim Stillman1:00:00Yes, I'm expecting some announcements quite soon on players like Georgia Stamway and I think that will create excitement within the Arsenal women community and curiosity. I think because I think even if you don't follow the women's game that closely Georgia Stamway players like that are going to be players people have heard of. So we'll get together pretty soon and talk all of that

Clive Palmer1:00:19Yeah. There's a conversation there.

Tim Stillman1:00:23Out absolutely. So do keep it with us, keep it with us here on Patreon. But if you don't want to do it on Patreon, we will always do our two free shows every week. And we'll be back with another one on Thursday. Until then, take care of yourselves and we'll talk to you after Arsenal 10 World Cup nil.