Arsenal on Brink of Title After Excruciating Win at West Ham

Elliot Smith0:34Hello and welcome to the ArsenalVision podcast with me, your host Tim Stillman in the hosting chair today. Elliot's on, well, he's telling us it's a work trip, but he keeps sending pictures of himself on the beach. So I'm not sure how much of a work trip it actually is, but nonetheless, he's not available today. Obviously our kind of our second choice, as it were, our Pierre Hincapié, Phil Costa is also not available for reasons I think we've explained. So you've got me, Myles Louis Stillman. In the hosting chair to talk about Sundays. Quite extraordinary. And I have to say listeners, very traumatic one-nil win away at West Ham. Was at the game, I was in the away end. We are going to go heavy on, I think, the emotional side of this because I don't think I've ever seen a game like this or at least the last kind of 15, 20 minutes like that ever watching Arsenal. And I think I died medically for about four and a half minutes there. So I'm on, if you hear the sound of a defibrillator during this podcast, you'll know why. And here to go over that brilliant but terrifying one nil victory at West Ham is Clive Palmer. Clive, how are you voice there yet?

Clive Palmer1:48I'm dying with a bit of man flu, right? So the men that are listening, you know what I mean, it gets serious when you get these sort of issues. And the women that are listening, you have no idea how bad man flu is. But I'm fighting for it at the moment. And I'm really keen to hear how it was in the away end team, because you've been to a few games, mate. And for you to say this is like no other is making me think, my goodness, what was it like around the bodies and the people in that away end? At West Ham.

Elliot Smith2:19Yeah, well, let's let's I think that's the best place to start, to be honest, is we'll go through the game and we'll go through some of the performances and analyze it and the substitutions, I think, like all kind of three tranches of substitutions, I think, are really big talking points. And we'll go through all of them. We'll go through the incident with the disallowed goal and all of that. But I think we have to start at the top with. You know, the emotions that we all went through, let's say from the Leandro, well, even just before the Leandro truss our goal where we're really going for a goal. Clive, you'll know as well as I do there, there are some times when you're going for the title and you get, remember 2002, we played it switch in West Ham in the same week and we didn't score till the last 10 minutes. 98 Derby at home squeezed out a one nil. To go top with a couple of games to go like you get those games but You know that that let's take it like a couple of minutes before the truss our goal where we're banging on the door We get the goal Then there's we think West Ham of equalize and then we have a very long VAR check. I mean I'm happy to go through what it was like in the ground in a minute But I mean have you experienced anything like that and how did you experience that kind of gamut of emotion?

Clive Palmer3:38The whole day in the whole game, had bad, I'll be honest, it had a bad feeling for me. I had, had Bournemouth vibes and I just thought, you know what, nothing to say, keep your mouth quiet, don't say nothing online. Don't send out negative energy into the world. Just, just shut up for once. And then see what happens. And the game sort of started and we did really well obviously. And then things started to happen and. You realize how much little control you have, if any. Things started to happen which didn't seem right. Our manager having a brain fade. West Ham winning the second ball, running for our defense and Rayo making the save which he had no right to make. And you're just thinking, my God, this is just awful. This is not part of the plan that we had. And then, know, our skipper comes on and plays like Messi for five minutes and literally just takes over the game. And you're thinking, what's going on here? He sets up the goal. He comes into space where the whole world is watching this game of football, but Martin Edelgard finds five yards of space in a penalty area. I mean, it's just not normal. And then he drops it off and we score. And he's like, oh my goodness, what's happening? And then we get the virus. And by that time I was doommelayed and thinking, they're going to score, they're going to score, they're going to score. I know they're going to score.

Clive Palmer5:05Everyone in my house was saying, shut up, will you? Just shut up. And of course they scored. That's your fault. And I just thought, a head in hands moment. But again, you just don't think it's done, you know? But I will say, from an emotion point of view, Tim, I did not enjoy that at all. That was bad, mate. I go and watch, like you do, you watch a lot of football matches, different levels. You watch like women's game. I watch women's game. Not league games, I love football. Mate, I did not enjoy that. That took me to places, dark places, dark places. And it's very dark. I know you've been, you're a big away man. I am just thinking, what was it like looking at those bodies there? What was it like looking around that end? It must have been something you'll never forget.

Elliot Smith6:03Yeah, yeah, I mean, obviously, like the goal goes in from Trossard and that is one of the most I've ever celebrated a goal because obviously we're knocking on the door. We're really going for it. We know we know it's do or die. We know we have to get that goal. And I came into the game thinking we're either going to do them for nil or it's going to be torture. And it was quickly, I think, quite obvious we weren't going to do them for nil. And I wasn't expecting that either given their situation. Their improvement as well. Think I read somewhere that had, think this was prior to last week, maybe had the premier league started on new year's day, that'd be seventh. They've had a good second half of the season. Made some good January signings. I didn't like the thought of, you know what they do. They've got Somersfield and Bowen who are wingers who should not be relegated from the premier league. I think they could play for most teams in the premier league. I don't think they'll be playing championship football next season, no matter what happens. And you know they go long to them and I thought this is gonna be a battle it's gonna be a battle and you know you're knocking on the door knocking on the door the goal comes and honestly we're recording this you know maybe like what 21 hours after Trossard scored that goal my sides are still aching from like the release

Elliot Smith7:23Of that. And because of the way the way credit system works nowadays, I very rarely sit with my friends at away games. They've all got more away credits than me. So I tend to end up sitting kind of on my own, but you're never alone on a white game. Basically there's always, there's always kind of people around and you experience everything, feel everything together. You know, I sat next to two lads who said they listened to the podcast as well. And, you know, by the end of the game, like we hugged. Never met, never met before, but it was like, we've exactly, it's like,

Clive Palmer7:56You're lifelong friends now, right? That's it.

Elliot Smith7:59We've been through something today. If like, if we never see each other again, we've been through something. And, and it was one of those, and, know, walking out of the ground, was jubilant. They're kind of my favorite chant in the world. And now you're going to believe us chant, you know, people like, you know, when people are so happy, that they're just smiling idiotically. And that's what I was doing as well. And everyone's like walking down the stairs and everyone's singing and chanting. And you see people meet up and hug each other and all of that. But what preceded that, the VAR check, I was actually wearing this jumper that I'm wearing right now because I've just been around the house all day, no need to get started up or anything. And I just, put my head in my jumper. For the whole VAR check because honestly, I felt like I was about to cry. And I was just like, and you know, there's a lot of, Sky are very good at finding people in crowds at the moment. Some of it not that coincidental, I don't think. Some of it is, and I just thought, I don't want to be on Sky, like with my face, do you know what I mean? Like

Elliot Smith9:15On the verge of tears and. Obviously, like the longer the check goes on, the more you think, well, logically it has to be because they're going to rule it out. We're right at the other end. I was in row 55. So like I've got, I haven't got eyes on it at all, but it's like the players seem so convinced and it wasn't like, my God, we've just conceded in last minute. They seem really convinced. And logically I'm sitting there going, if I supported any other team, I'd be sitting there going, yeah, of course they're going to rule this out. Cause like, taking ages, soon as they send the ref over to the monitor, when they sent the ref over, Saliba celebrated. So I thought at that point had been disallowed. And then it quickly became apparently hadn't. And then you're standing there kind of going, well, usually they overturn it. Like that, that honestly, that was like a dear family member being on the operating table. And you're waiting for you're waiting for the news one way or another. That's what it felt like. Because when that goal went in, that feeling in the pit of my stomach was just absolutely like my head just went on my hands went on my head like that. I was just like, my God. And obviously there was a big secondary celebration. There was a secondary explosion of limbs as they say when the goal was disallowed. By the way adored the in right quote on sky about

Elliot Smith10:38After review of the sweetest words I've heard since Martin Luther King. Have a dream. And, but I didn't have the energy to celebrate it. Just like, I think I just turned around and I just looked at people and I was like, I haven't got it in me. I haven't got like the energy to celebrate it. But when the final whistle went, I celebrated that and my mouth was so dry. I was trying to sing and I couldn't because like my tongue was literally sticking to my teeth because my mouth was so dry. I'm going to say cause of anxiety. It might've had something also to do with pretty much refreshments as well. But, but it was, it was jubilant afterwards on the way out and you know, went for a drink afterwards in a bar called the howling hops saw some guys again, who I know listened to this podcast and it was all just like, you know, hugging and stuff like that. And everyone just completely euphoric. But Clive, what, what preceded that? I completely agree with you. Like,

Elliot Smith11:40I never want to go through it again. However, if we do the business and cross the line, I'll remember it forever. Like it will. And I'll remember it fondly forever. But like I said to my mates afterwards, I was like, everyone was like, how are you? And I was like, I feel like I've just had open heart surgery and the doctors like, you're going to be okay, but I'm recovering. So I'm not well. That was kind of how I felt. And, but that, that VAR check, I think on Sky, didn't they say like, this might be the biggest VAR check in history because obviously what's riding on it for Arsenal and for West Ham and you know, people all complain about it. And you know, I'm, on record about how much I love VAR and think it's great. And it's,

Clive Palmer12:29Absolutely, it's all there, all there on record Tim.

Elliot Smith12:33It's, I'm, I'm on record many times saying that, but like, once people stop crying and whinging, what a piece of drama. Really? We can

Clive Palmer12:43Yeah, I mean.

Elliot Smith12:44Say that because we're on the right side of it, but what a piece of drama.

Clive Palmer12:47Yeah, Sky have got what they wanted. They didn't get a title race last year. That was our fault, by the way, because we didn't do our job. And they got one this year. And boy are they milking it. They really are going for it. And the way it came across on TV him that basically on first view, I didn't see a foul. Be honest with you, I didn't see one. I knew Ray would come, because that's he does in the late in games. He wants to stop Pomp until they start. But to go into it technically, I didn't think he. I think he got there, I Shea Gibbon said this, I agree with him. He got there too soon and he was there too soon and he didn't actually jump. Know, he was there too quickly, he had no leverage to jump. He his arms up and the West Ham guys did not need to foul him, he was already in trouble. And they did properly foul him. And the way they described it on Sky was they flashed through our tets and he had his hand on his arm, thinking, arsehole looking for a handball potentially. That was quickly dismissed. And they thought it might be Rice, you know, when he saved it on the line, he's thinking he wants, he almost intimating what the penalty result means. They got it completely

Clive Palmer13:56Wrong. And so you were confused from that. And then you're thinking, well, it's gone over the line. That's definite, because that's always good. And that's one good thing, goal line technology. And then you start to see the foul. It's, what this has uncovered, Tim, I know you, I know you agree, it's because I've seen your tweets today. What has uncovered? Is a ferrari action to the football club that we love and it's not based in any form of analysis reason it's like i don't like marmite right some people do right so and it's like what are doing here now what have we become what has football analysis become in the modern day has it become just a vehicle for engagement has it become a vehicle for shock factor. You know, we no longer can just look at something and have a reasonable conversation about it without 50 million screenshots of appearing on your timeline, trying to justify something. And I don't know how you feel and you're not there yet. There's a moment of joy coming, hopefully. But for me, it's stripped away a lot of joy, you know, about how I feel about watching football, because I hold people up, particularly professional people.

Clive Palmer15:16I hold them up. They've experienced things that we have never experienced and I expect them to be intelligent and honest and analytical about something and not just really reveal themselves as people that actually just don't like our football club. That's very deductive. It's not healthy for us or people watching. It's definitely affected how I've viewed football recently. But when it comes down to it, and me and you, you've done more laps than me, I've done a few laps watching this football team, home and away and in Europe. And these moments don't come along very often. And despite the multiple attempts to strip away the joy, I'm going to hold on to this and remember it. And I can see people fighting back today online. This is a special time. It didn't feel. That special, but it's special and sometimes it's your time. And I'm hoping that this viral decision is just a start of an unbelievable couple of weeks. But yeah, sometimes you've sent something is on its way and I'm just, I'm not there yet, but it feels like it could be our time to.

Elliot Smith16:34Yeah, the players at the end. Mean, obviously you have like the emotion of like effectively kind of getting a goal in the last minute, right? Like a goal being ruled out. But like Martin Odegaard came over and he just like punched the air three times, Jürgen Klopp style. And they all like, they all kind of, I've got in my mind that they like linked somehow, but they were just like stood in a line. And I think, I think everyone feels that this was the game that was potentially going to be the most difficult. It might not turn out like that because like we're going to play two teams who've got nothing to play for and maybe that frees them and maybe, maybe it gets really tense for us. Don't know, but it felt like something significant for those players. And actually I was listening to, I think I was listening to Libero last week and Miguel Delaney, who I think is well connected at Arsenal as well. He was kind of talking about how. That Man City game felt like it was looming all season, know, that it was really looming on them, that it was playing on their minds and that once they got it out of the way, it was kind of fine after that, you know, and actually maybe we could have done with that game a couple of months earlier just to get it out of the way. But, you know, there's work to do, yeah, but that felt very significant. I think you could see it on the players.

Elliot Smith18:03Let's, let's con and when it comes to the kind of, know, people disliking Arsenal and all of that, I feel really lucky. I was completely disconnected from that yesterday because I was at the game and then I went to the pub with about 10 people and I didn't move my ass until about half past 10. You know, didn't eat a lot during the day either. So, you know, I, I, I allowed that, not allowed that it was just like, kind of a joyous occasion. Was a mate's birthday as well, my mate Tim, who's been to every single game this season. So, you know, we, drunk it in quite literally, but.

Clive Palmer18:43Good for you, good for you. Some people watching from home weren't able to do that, I'm afraid. They were being dragged through the coals and sometimes it is better to be there and just to absorb it and not everyone can, but it definitely affected me. Actually, I can hear myself talking and thinking, it shouldn't really matter. It shouldn't really matter. What am I hoping to achieve? In the end, people are people, right? And they'll always surprise you, disappoint you, make you a measure. I'm disappointed by some of the professionals and their reaction. It should be better, but hey, look, that's the

Elliot Smith19:19Yeah, absolutely. And in, in concert with the modern world, my bookmarks folder on Twitter, my goodness, some people really better hope Arsenal don't win the league because I've got receipts and they're all going to come out if we do it. Anyway, let's, let's talk about the, the, the game a little bit then, in the manner that we kind of usually would now the lineup unchanged. Was that what you expected?

Clive Palmer19:48I thought we'd rotate a bit because obviously the Tuesday night game team, excuse me, you were there. Exhausting, wasn't it? Exhausting emotionally, players all over the place, the joy, the release. There's normally an emotional impact on there and I thought it'd make a couple of changes, particularly maybe at fullbacks. I thought we may do that. Just give some energy there and West Ham wide players in Somerville and Bowen are decent. I thought you might just freshen it up there. But we went the same again and. I think within that construct of that team, there are relationships and pairs that look really quite good together. All of a sudden, Joshua Calafiori, Ben White and Sack back together. Myles and Declan in the middle and Eze and Yokere's up top. Also said that ours are cool. We know they're mates, so we're good there. So this is sort of starting to work. So I sort of quickly accepted that and thought, okay, everyone's in shape, everyone's going. And so, absolutely fine with it. But it was such an interesting game that.

Clive Palmer20:49As soon as we had to make a change, it changed. And to be Tim, I wasn't expecting a start like that. I wasn't expecting us to be that aggressive and do that in tune. I'm looking at this and thinking, they're dialed in, we're gonna be all right. But we didn't quite execute on the chances that we had. The California should have cut my back rather than taken outside left foot shot. And he looked up and saw Eze there afterwards and I could see the look on his face as if he saying, I messed up there, didn't I? Didn't hear that call. And Eze's got to demand it a bit more, if it reminds you. Get your arms out, style, shape, make sure they can't miss you. These little details weren't going for us. And as the time ticked on, I'm thinking, dear, you know, I want to score while Saka's hot and fresh, you know, which he wasn't to be fair in the early stages of the game. While our attackers are good, let's score. We don't score a lot of second half goals. So as time went on, I got more and more worried, you know? But we got there, right? We got there, we settled. But I know you want to go into substitutions, no doubts. I'll leave that on the table for you. But yeah, that Ben White moment was the moment the afternoon changed.

Elliot Smith22:03Yeah, definitely. So we have, you know, a couple of good chances from set pieces in particular, like you say, a wonderful ball by Leo Trossard in behind to Calafiori. We'll talk about Leo Trossard later because something's changed there and I don't really know what it is, but, you know, wonderful ball, you know, he hits the bar as well from a set piece, but you're right. Because the thing is, so I, I like you, I was expecting the full backs to change. And I think that's about West Ham. More than us. Was expecting to see him capia just because what West Ham do when they get the ball, they whack it out wide. That's what they do. They bought in January, they bought Kostyanos, striker, because he's a hold up player. And they bought Pablo, who didn't start this game actually, because West Ham went to a back five, but he's a bit of a number 10. Basically, Nuno bought players to feed those wide players. And that's what they've been doing since January. They bought a couple of players who can get the ball out there. And that's what they want to do. ASAP, Bowen, Somersville, you know, like no messing around, no passing through the thirds. Yep.

Clive Palmer23:11Yeah, they got these Azzie as well, didn't they, to solidify at the back. And so they solidify the back door and then a little bit sharper at the top end of the pitch, bit more presence and physicality. And they suddenly look at, before the game, look at their record thinking, this might not be easy. You know, it dawned on me, you know, it might not be easy.

Elliot Smith23:30And they got variants that Brentford last week. And if you saw the highlights, they lost three nil, but they hit the woodwork three times. They had a goal disallowed on a set piece, very marginally. Although to be fair, I think when they played Everton at home a couple of weeks ago, the variants went for them, perhaps on some decisions there as well. But it wasn't a three nil game against Brentford at all. And so I didn't really take a great, well, I saw the result and I took heart and then I watched the highlights and I was like, no West Ham could have won that on another day. So, so I expected the full backs change. Did expect to see miles in midfield again and, and, and Declan rice, but you're right. The thing is, but I understood why he went unchanged. I understood why it was let's ride this as long as we can. And we can't ride it anymore because as you say, Ben white gets injured. And unfortunately that doesn't look good for him. I'm not convinced we'll be seeing him again this season and who knows, we might not see him in an Arsenal shirt again. It was very good. Like Ben White's not a player that stays down. Like this is a guy who.

Clive Palmer24:35So he looked broken hearted.

Elliot Smith24:38Yeah. Yeah. This is a guy who plays with a torn hamstring. Like he doesn't go down and stay down and, he walked off and I think he walked past us on the way off. I, know, unfortunately I think that looks, that looks pretty bad, but then. And I think everyone agrees with this about, you know, Zubimendi comes on and Declan Rice moves out to right back. I think we all agree that that was a mistake and Arteta, you know, later rectified it. But I know you explained this a little bit on the instant reaction. What do you think was the thinking behind that? Do you think it was just as simple as, you know what? Maybe Zubimendi's like our best player on the bench. So maybe instead of like, burning a sub by bringing a full back on? I can get him on, I can get my players on the pitch or do you think there was something a bit more tactical to it, whether it worked or not?

Clive Palmer25:30I tried to explain to myself, it's not what I would have done. I would just brought on the right back. I like Mosquera, I think he's good. The more times he plays in a pizza nap position, I'm going to get a better player. So just don't overthink. And when I saw they're both warming up, I'm thinking, OK, Mosquera's going to come on. There wouldn't be too many come on. OK, what's he going to do? Now, I thought for a moment, it's going to matter up in the back three. That's why I just thought that for a second, because they were, you know. They weren't causing any problems. Why do that? Therefore, is Zubman gonna go right back? Because Zubman has played in defense before. But you remember, in the Brighton game, when Declan went to right back in that game, I he had a few problems. I think he was man of match in that game. He was excellent. And he must have had that in his mind. But no, mate, you're west Ham away. That's the place where he needs to be, where he's comfortable. You have to read people. He wants to go there and show all those. People at that stadium, they made the right decision to go to Arsenal. They all wanted him to go to Man City, not go to another London club, who they don't think is any bigger than them. So they don't like him. And now you've taken him out of his number one position and stuck him on the exterior of this game. That is not a good move psychologically for a player. I did feel, Tim, he was already playing in the right back position anyway. I thought he

Clive Palmer26:51Was too wide. I sometimes feel with Declan that he sort of. To try to change things defensively, he seeks lane four, if you know what mean by that. He seeks those areas. And sometimes I want him to hold the middle a little bit more. And I didn't like where he was on the right-hand side. I was trying to think, why is he doing that? Is he just there to feed Sacko? Well, okay, that wasn't working because that link wasn't really there in the game. So I'm just thinking, he's thinking, well, we're dominating the game. Let me just get another footballer on the pitch. But I think. Something's happened there, we declamarise his ascension in this group, he is the key reference point for us and he needs to be there. He's almost like the glue that just stops things from starting and then he starts things for us. And so by moving him out of the centre of the pitch, it doesn't bother me who came come into that position. It was not going to be the same. So you've taken a reference point out of the middle, you're brought in a player that

Clive Palmer27:53Plays one good game, has one bad game at the moment. He's fighting for his game. He seems to do better in Europe, but fighting for his Premier League games. And you said to him, can you hold this now? And I think it probably affected Myles only two, three games into his senior adult career in Centner midfield. You've now changed his partner. What role does he take? And you know, I always talk about the game in pairs, I just think you broke up some pairs. Didn't need to break up. You broke up two pairs. You could have chose one. You know, and I thought that I didn't think it was good. I didn't think it was good. Couldn't see it. I couldn't see any benefit for it. And you're sitting there thinking, where's that decision come from? And that for me is pressure, procrastination, coach is talking, he's running by them. They said, yeah, okay, let's give it a go. Sometimes you have to be, you have to risk manage this situation, right? And say, what are we trying to achieve? Are we risking upsetting the balance of the team? For one change, you know, and I think we did that. And yeah, we got away there, right? We got to half time and what happened at half time? Well, I saw a message from James Baines flash up on my timeline, right? Saying, Mosquera's warming up without a bib. And

Clive Palmer29:09I thought, thank goodness for that. Let's just fix it. Who's coming off? I don't know how you go. Also, you're there. I'm not sure you went down for a drink at half time, but you're there. You can see the subs warming up. What was the vibe in the ground when that stuff happened?

Elliot Smith29:23It's funny you say that because I did go downstairs at half time to use the gents and I ran in to my mate Tim and we never discussed the game tactically while we're there. Just never, never do. But straight away it was like, he's got to fix Rice a right back.

Clive Palmer29:43Fix it yeah

Elliot Smith29:45Like that's a mistake. He's got to rectify it. And it's. It felt really unfortunate to me because it kind of had a limited impact. Like, all right, we lost a bit of control of the game. Game comes a bit more transitional again, which is what West Ham want. They get that header, but we weren't under serious threat. Essentially we kind of threw away 20 minutes of a game.

Clive Palmer30:08Yeah.

Elliot Smith30:09And so a big part of me is like, well, do you know what? Not a big problem. Just fix it at half time. But there was another part of me that thinks, that burns a sub now because we've had to make two subs instead of one. And like, we might need Martinelli and Madueco and have a like, we're gonna have to call for the cavalry at some point. And we've now limited how we can only bring three attackers on now instead of potentially four. And that kind of felt unfortunate to me, but everyone could see it. Like, you don't have to be like a tactical or an analyst. Everyone was just like, yeah, that's not worked. We've got to stop doing that. I didn't see like the subs warming up, but yes, I definitely know from covering the women's games where like, you know, I'm paid to pay attention to detail. You know, when someone's coming on, right, you know, from the warmup, it's like, the fitness coach is out. And like you say, maybe they don't have a bib on maybe they have like different, it's like all the others are doing a bit of a Rondo.

Elliot Smith31:13And she's running up and down doing laps. It's like she's coming on kind of thing. And so, you know, when someone's likely to come on, I wasn't surprised about it at all. I was slightly surprised it was Calafiori. Now, Arteta said afterwards he was injured. He did, there was a point where West Ham went forward. He got the ball nicked off him and he went down and he kind of, was near the microphones and he yelped. But then like the referee said, no and he kind of got straight back up but I don't know if that if that was it and I don't know where you are on this because like on one hand Calafiori being injured unfortunately is very believable but I also wonder if there's a part of Mikel that was you know saving face a little bit because he didn't want to say in as many words I messed this one up and you know I had go back to the drawing board and you know miles at left back you know like we said we know Jared Bowen attacks that side. So that was a risk in and of itself to have miles there. How did you feel about the actual change, I guess, that was made?

Clive Palmer32:19Yeah, I thought once Zubmendi was on, I thought he's going to stay on. I thought, you know what, this might cost Myles. I thought he might get hooked at halftime. But then moved him out and Catefioe came off. I was just trying think for him. It's not an excuse. We all know that mistakes are made. Let me just try to reason with people as to why. Maybe Catefioe is a 70 minute player at moment. And he's thinking, you know what, if I take him out now at halftime in a window where I'd don't know, it's almost like a free window. If I take him out now, I lose him for 20 minutes, but I know miles can last for the 90. So I move miles out, I restore my sentiment field and I get my fallback balance together. That was the only way I could think about it. Then he still had three substitutions left and he can use two windows to do it. And I thought, that's me overthinking it. California, I really liked his performance. It's gonna be so interesting to see if he's really injured him or just a little bit of a tweak because he managed to find himself in front of the away fans when the goal went in. I don't know how he got around there so quickly. And so that tells you he was moving quite well. And so whatever injury he's got, don't think it's like Ben White had to be helped off. He couldn't have his weight on his leg, you know? So hopefully that's not too bad because I think he's a very important player to how we play and him and Trost are just magnificent together.

Clive Palmer33:41So that's the only information I could make really. And it just goes back to that we potentially lost 20 meters of kind of fury that we wouldn't have lost. Incapable would probably come on for him. So he's lost the appearance fee. And that's just nature of the B-Swipe, but he got us stabilized again. And we went from there.

Elliot Smith34:01Yeah, and you know, from there, I was kind of trying to stay calm. Had watched most of the City Bramford game when I got back from Villa Park from being at the women's game, watching on a mate's phone, obviously the second it went 3-0, we turned it off. But you know, I was reminding myself City were 0-0 at half time yesterday, like, you know, but you know that it's like, it's getting it's ticking time bomb time, isn't it? It's like we got to find a goal from somewhere, never felt to me like it was going to be anything other than a one-nil game in kind of either direction, to be honest. So the second half kind of starts, we're probing a little bit, but not really getting anywhere, not really creating very much. Saka has a couple of siters, like Saka didn't look great again, I

Clive Palmer34:54Good day today.

Elliot Smith34:55Don't think. And. It was another one kind of when he came off a bit later, like I think he could have come off quite a lot earlier, but it's one of those things when you're looking for a goal, you want your main man on as long as possible. But you know, it's kind of, it's very tight, it's very tense, but then Arsenal do make another change and they get Urquhart on. Havertz on for Zubimendi, which was, you know, I'm sure Zubimendi, you know, needed, I hope and suspect that Arteta said to him afterwards, like it's nothing personal, mate, like. Actually it's on me.

Clive Palmer35:28It happens. Yeah.

Elliot Smith35:29I messed up. It's not your fault. It's mine. But I had to get it done. Type thing. Know, have it's on in midfield as well. Almost like second striker, but really the change in this game comes from Martin Odegaard. And I don't know about you. Well, I think I do know this because you've talked about this quite a lot, but this is a side of this team. I'm really liking this season where we play as a head of our God, on the bench, which completely logical decision, but it's not an as a game, not an as a game. And he has very reduced influence. And there are times where I've had an issue with the huge divergence in profile between those two players, cause they're so, so different. Sometimes that's not helpful. Sometimes though. It's really helpful. It's like strikers, isn't it? It's like, the guy who runs in behind isn't giving you any problems. We're going to throw on like Chris Wood or something, you know, like six foot five guy, and we're going to give you a different problem. And I really felt like the Urda Guard sub in particular was that it's like, the low touch guy that can smash it in the top corners, not getting any joy. So what about the guy who's going to take 500 touches? And I felt like

Elliot Smith36:50This Odegaard performance from the bench is one of the most impactful we've seen from the substitutes bench all season.

Clive Palmer36:59Yeah, you know what Tim, the scenario was very similar to Newcastle away. You went to Newcastle, didn't you? Remember that scenario? We were one down and I think he came on 15 minutes before the end and very similar scenario. They were pushed back. I thought West Ham, they were dumb after halftime because we were rocking a little bit and they came out after halftime and just sort of sat off and sort of tried to get us the last 20 minutes and see they can get us edgy and scared. They should have kept going because they were getting quite aggressive in the challenges in the end of the first half. Were we were going down holding our legs from various challenges that we didn't get free kicks for. And they were getting in contact and physical with us. They should have kept that going, but they didn't. So we see out the first bit and then we get to the point where the Odegaard substitution comes on. And before the game, I actually felt it would be an Odegaard and have Earth's Day. Cause my experience at West Ham is they are going to sit. If they sit, space can be at the premium. And so it's not going to be a Yoko, a Yoko has channel day. And I thought you're crazy. It's fine on the day. In the end, it's going to be a have a stay combinations, back posts clips and just smart move around the box with one twos. And I had a feeling for the guard and have us all day and not every game is a habits game and not every game is an early guard game. But I think the maturity of this team and maybe maturity of our thinking is, and maybe we're not always there. We've almost got like special teams in some.

Clive Palmer38:25Regards, you know, and we have to be comfortable with it. You know, I think there are certain players that play like the centre backs, potentially Rice, know, take full backs, nearly Timber would play mostly, you know, Saka would play, you know, but the rest is special teams, Llokerey and Havards, completely diversion, right? So, Jay-Zuus, the left wingers, Mark Nelly, Trossard, completely different, pairs with Calafiori. It's special teams and only guys that's fallen into the special teams category. And that's hard for a skipper. That's hard for him. And people will say, I've been harder than him. I know I have. And people say, we haven't played well for two years. Well, he has played well in patches and those patches have really suited him. And if you look at these scenarios, I actually think his best game was Villa at home in the second half. I thought he was brilliant in that game. Again. He was perfect for this, but it wasn't just, I say this on the IR and I really want to get this out there because I it's really important. There are gains and there are gains and there are sectioning gains when people need to stand up and say, this is me now. I need to do something. My manager has messed up cut of substitutions, but this manager has supported my career for years and he has made me a multimillionaire and I need to now do something for him because he needs a bit of help. And the only guy came on that pitch.

Clive Palmer39:51And I swear to God, had forgotten that player. I'd forgotten it. He just took over in all aspects. And there's so many little things you see when a player's on it. Even on that last, on the VAR goal, if you watch Odegaard holding off his man and not being ragdoll around like he was at Brentford, physically putting himself in there, these details really matter to make sure you protect your goal. And he just changed it and he just made them step back. And it's no coincidence that he found the space because they were petrified of what he might do behind them. So they dropped away and dropped away and dropped away. Great run from Noni inside channel. He flipped in behind there. Again, Noni doesn't make that run. He doesn't, he should do it more. Off the ball in behind and he finds him, that pins them back. They drop another five yards on the back of that, know, and he's, they can play in front of them. I just think he sent, he transmitted a message to say, I'm in charge of this now. Follow me.

Clive Palmer40:52And when it happens, people want to combine with him. And on the goal, I thought he was excellent. I thought that he bubbled it into Rice on the one, two, and Rice just cushioned it back to him. That's high quality play that is. That's high quality. My God, delay, delay, delay. But if you watch his layoff, Tim, the pace of it, and it's right on Trossard's right foot, these details are critical to him allowing to get the shot off just in time for Suchet gets the block in. And it's in, right? And our lives change. You know, when you watch the training videos and they're trying to shoot into those little small goals, literally about a foot wide, a foot and a half wide. That's the details that they're trying to hit. That's what they're trying to hit. That little dink on that pass, just to drop it off to Trossard, who we all know is going to take that shot, you know, first time and whip it. Haven't seen it for about a night in the games, mind, but we all know what he's going to do. I just thought it was. The details of that and how they impose themselves offensively in that last quarter was really, really good. Really good.

Elliot Smith41:56Why don't we take a beat here and Elliot can tell us about some brands and then we'll do, these won't be equal halves, I don't think, but we'll come back after you get a chance to hear about some brands. Okay, so we're back and we left on a bit of a cliffhanger, which was Martin Odegaard coming on and the kind of the tee up for the Trossard goal. We can kind of come back to that because before that goal, you know, there are, there are pinpoints in this game, which are season defining, particularly when you get to this part of the season. So the Trossard goal, the VAR check, all of that. But one of the biggest moments in this game is the goalkeeper. When, is it Mateus Fernandez?

Clive Palmer42:44Yep. Good player.

Elliot Smith42:45Goes through, yeah, dances through. Now, fortunately, because I was about 3000 yards away, I didn't quite appreciate how close to the goal he actually was. Like he takes his setting touch inside the six yard box. Like he's too close. That's kind of what does him in the end. But so from where I was, looked like, don't get me wrong, it looked like a big chance, but. I thought he was like five yards further back. I didn't realize he was right on top of David Ryre. And, you know, there is a kind of irony to this, that this is the game where David Ryre claims the golden glove again, three games, two games to go, sorry, with two games to spare. He's done that. This is a player, you know, we got the Football Writers Association Player of the Year. This week, I don't really care about those awards. I think it's very difficult to give out individual awards across a whole league. I think you can do intra club where everyone's under the same context. I don't think you can do it for a whole league because how the hell, how the hell do you compare David Ryre and Bruno Fernandez? Like it's not possible, but this Clive has been a massive player for us this season who has come up with massive moments.

Elliot Smith44:04And this was another one that, you know, that old cliche, it's as good as a goal. I understand that perhaps, you know, West Ham would have wanted that maybe to fall to Callum Wilson or someone like that rather than Fernandez, but a huge moment from, from a player who has given us a lot of match winning moments, I think, not just this season, but during his time at the club.

Clive Palmer44:26Yeah, this is a moment where he sort of wins a second ball and something that we're really good at. When you've we've stuck our attacking midfielders on, right? So to trade off his, we may not be so good on those little drops of the ball, but we're going to score a goal. He does a little one, two and goes through. So that sort of chance, we just don't concede. So this is a heart-stopping moment when you see somebody do a good one, two and get it back and his first touch takes him through the last line. Gabriel's not there and this is the moment where you're thinking, no, here we go. This is it. All the fears that you have about not getting to the promised land, not only are we not gonna get the three points, we're not gonna get any points and that opens the door up completely and we'll. And it's just a moment where your life flashes in front of you and it just freezes and he has that extra touch to him, he gets too close. And then he tries to give him the eyes and Deferteray says, you're gonna have to beat me. You're going to have to beat me. I'm not diving out of the way. I watched Harlem school games, Bernie the other week, a goalkeeper died for a hot dog, mate, before they had a chance to shoot. I'm thinking, you're going to have to beat me. And it very much felt like Emi Martinez, his save against Colomarani in the World Cup final, where he stood there and then moved when he his shot. It's the right thing to do, put under pressure, make them beat you. And he made the save, right? And so suddenly the football year conversations have flipped massively.

Clive Palmer45:55There are different levels of games. There just is, right? Not just the volume. There are games that really, really mean something. And Bruno Fan has been a really good player. But how many games has he played in that really, really means something? You know, this isn't a Premier League award only, so for all the football. So the Champions League games that Ray has been involved in have really meant something, you know? And. And so I felt it was wrong. But hey, look, we're a little bit biased on his podcast, you know, but yeah, let's be honest, right. He has educated me on what football can be and how important a goalkeeper is. We all talk about our buildups now, at least part of it massively. There's one game we went back to 38 times this season, probably too many. And so he's a key playmaker for us. He has all of our tactical instruction is mine. You see how many times he goes to our tech to talk to him about what he wants to do and his exits and his distribution. When you're in the game ground live, he's always talking to the coaches and the manager regularly goes over. He's a key leader. Used to be a leadership group at Brentford. He's coming to his group, completely changed how we play, taking the pressure away from what we do. Settles us down the back end of our pitch. And also the closer you get to him, the better he is.

Clive Palmer47:16I sometimes feel from 33 yards he's not so good as he is from three. You know, it's incredible, isn't it? And as a footballer, probably with Rice, the most transformative signings in this Arteta era, because I think both of them have changed things. I think Sleba coming in was already here, wasn't it? But if you look at those three, I think they've been transformative. They're just so critical to our play style and what we want to do. And probably define us. One of those players that should be transformed to should be in our attack, but just not there. That's the next phase. So Tim, this player is critical. And it's quite interesting people talking about goalkeeper in this way, which goes to show, isn't it? The game is broadening its mind. Just a journalist need to catch up now for Northwest of England.

Elliot Smith48:08Yeah, it's funny you say that I was listening to the Totally Football Show and they were talking about this a bit because I think Michael Cox from the Athletic, he'd said that he spoiled his ballot paper for football writers play of the year. He said he didn't feel anyone deserved to win it. And I understand that. But I think the conversation now having that I completely agreed with it's not a vintage season for attackers. Of course, it's not. You know, maybe like I always get the Eagles mixed up. Who play for Nottingham Forest and Brentford, but the guy who plays for Brentford is Igor Jesus. Igor Thiago and Igor Jesus is at Forest. Yeah.

Clive Palmer48:41Ego Tiago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Elliot Smith48:45So Igor Thiago has scored like 20 Premier League goals or more. Like, but I think most people would say it hasn't been a vintage season for attackers, but they were saying, and I completely agree with this, like surely that means the defending has been really good. And we've got, we've got some really good defenders and goalkeepers in the league and everyone's struggling to score. So why doesn't that translate into the player, player of the year vote? Like you are allowed to vote for a defender or a goalkeeper. Like it doesn't have to be an attacking player. And I think, like I said, I don't really care, to be honest, but I think that's where that decision's come from. It's kind of like, who's the best attacking player. And it's just like, well, no, that the premise is supposed to be who's the best. Player and that can be a defender or a goalkeeper. Anyway, like David Ryre, when we do the Arsenal player of the season vote on arsenal.com, I expect to see him on the podium somewhere. And, it takes a lot for a goalkeeper, I think to get that kind of recognition. You know, big save there from David Ryre and obviously look, we get the Trossard goal and we've kind of gone through it and what I love about it as well, you know, you were talking about how Odegaard set it up. Like Trossard is set. He's set.

Elliot Smith49:59Like his right foot's on the back, you know, on his back leg, he's already pulled the trigger back. It's like, just give me the ball and I'll release. And I think that's part of what makes him such a great one-touch finisher, because he prepares before the ball arrives. Freddie Youngberg used to do it as well. Pires used to do it, that kind of stride onto it, because they do the preparation before the ball arrives, so they don't waste time, like swinging the leg back. It's already there. And you can see him just going, me the ball, give me the ball. And it's one of those where, again, I was behind that goal. But you know, when you watch football a lot and you watch a certain player a lot, like your mind goes a couple of milliseconds before your eyes. You're like, I know what he's gonna do here. It's a bit like when Saka cuts in on his left foot, you're like, he's gonna put this along the floor in the bottom corner. Like your brain just goes there in advance. And as soon as he took that ball back for Trossard, I was like, I know what's happening here. He's side footing that it's going to go low. It's going to go in the corner. And, you know, his first goal since December. Mean, he doesn't usually celebrate goals like that either. Like he put up a wonderful picture on his Twitter feed of him celebrating goal. Yeah.

Clive Palmer51:12Yeah, I got it saved, I got it saved.

Elliot Smith51:15And he's, he's not, he's not like that usually when he celebrates a goal. So you can tell what it meant, but. I want to talk about his performance overall. The last few games, like we found this player again. I'm only going to reference this because I think it might be useful context, but obviously there was a story about his personal life, which was released on Sunday morning, very deliberately, very cynically. It's been there for months and it's been very cynically devised to release at this kind of moment. Um, but, but I only mention it because that might provide some context. Who knows on like, if we're wondering why he hasn't been performing, we can only speculate on that. And it's probably not fair to do that anyway, but my God, we found this player again. We found clutch Trossard again. Why do you think that is that all of a sudden it's like we've got 20, 24, 25 Trossard back.

Clive Palmer52:16Just think about it, Tim. The Fulham game. When that team sheet came out, we're thinking, yeah, it's all right. A bit interesting. We've got a game in the week, know, Athletic commentary. A bit interesting. It's just all changed, isn't it? It's all changed. And the introduction of Myles has been significant. Significant. And I actually think this was Myles' best game because he did the midfield thing. Different partners. Go to left back. Brilliant in both positions. That to me is his best game, you know, easily. And Trostov, a game that I played against Madrid, I read he won something like 10 jewels. And it's like, he's just come back. Not he's just come back to him. He's come back better than ever. He looks like he is deadly serious in every moment. You know, there was a moment in one of the games, can't remember which one, when he came on late and Arteta gave him a massive rollicking. Excuse me for not tracking back. And I thought, he's done here. He's on the bench for a while, but now he's got back in. He's like, as good as I've seen him play. He's just absolutely super focused. When you think about it, he's one of the players I think has dug our tether out. He's a serious adult. He's not a kid. He's somebody with serious experience. Hasn't won many medals, if any. And here we are, this close.

Clive Palmer53:45This is exactly what you want. You want your men to turn up and say, I've got this. But he has been brilliant. And right now, if we're naming our European Cup final team, which we're going to have to think about very, very quickly, even I'm thinking about first 11, he's in it, isn't he? He's in it. He's got to be in it. You know, and there's no doubt about it because his work off the ball has improved significantly. And on the ball, he's playing some beautiful passes, beautiful retention. And now he's got goal. He's in that team, you know? So, yeah, he's gonna be playing porn, come the big games, but he's still got a couple more games to go. But where has he been? You're right, we can only speculate. We can sort of guess. We've known about the stuff in the background for quite a while. And obviously it would affect anybody, right? But now he's got his mind clear. Whatever's happened, it's cleared up in last two, three weeks. And we're glad to have him back.

Elliot Smith54:41Yeah, big time. I think you make a good point about Myles as well, because I think as Zubimendi has gotten tired, there's been a lot more backwards and sideways kind of passing, almost taking a breather on the ball. Lewis-Skelly, different type of player, but also just someone who hasn't played very much and therefore has more in the tank at the moment. But I just love his intention. Every time he gets the ball, it's, I'm either going to pass through the line or if the pass isn't there, I'm coming. I'm going to dribble. And I'm going to like one way or another, I'm getting this ball 10, 15 yards up the pitch. And I think he's made a huge difference.

Clive Palmer55:17Difference to him. Think it's almost worth a bigger discussion, I was worried about him at some points this season where I could feel he was very hesitant and looked his age. You know, I think he's very mature for his age, but he started to look and look his age, look a bit young, hesitant in challenges. But whatever's happened with him, the Newcastle cameo when he came on last 15, 20 minutes, that's when my eyebrows went up. Went, okay, you look a bit different. You look better, more purposeful. Then he gets his start. But I thought, okay, first one, you know that first game when you come back in, you do quite well. Tired towards you, understandably. Second one, even better. But this one, this is it, right? This is the game. And I thought it was magnificent. Absolutely magnificent in this game. And another one that's saying, come the big guy. Are you going to pick me? I tell you now, this time last week, I thought this is good, the hot hand, become the big day, get the experience in. I'm not saying that anymore. I think he's going to get there.

Elliot Smith56:27Well, yeah, I mean, this is a discussion that goes back to 20 years ago, right? 2006, we, wrote the hot hand, Matthew Flamini at left back and, and all of that and no soul Campbell, it was sender awesome. When it came to the final, Ashley Cole and soul Campbell came back in. I understood why that happened, but I know people have debated ever since whether that should have happened. But you're right. And you know, with miles in particular. He, yeah, he just, he really looks at home and it's, it's a bit of a position that, I think we've all been looking at, you know, that, that kind of midfield position and yeah, like these, these guys, they're, they're playing for spots in that final now. And I think, you know, we talk about the substitutions, look at the guys who didn't come off, Trossard didn't come off. Right. Like it could have easily been Madouaki for him and you keep Sacher on cause he might score your goal. Trossard stays on. Lewis-Skelly stays on could easily have been sacrificed at halftime.

Elliot Smith57:28And, I don't think, but it's like, no, you're performing, you're staying on. And I think those moments tell you quite a lot as well about, you know, the manager trusting certain people at certain times. And it's just like at this point, I trust you, you get in the full 90. And it's remarkable for him as well. It's I'm so happy for him because we can, we can see a path for him again. Now. I think that that spot is there as far as I'm concerned, because I was looking at that thinking that's where our next big transfer is potentially going to be. It looks like Elliot Anderson might go to Man City, but you know that play, is it going to be Tanali, is it going be Elliot Anderson? I think Myles might have changed the calculus there and I really hope he has. So we've gone through the emotional part of the goal and the VAR check where we all medically died for four and a half minutes. Talk me through the actual decision. Obviously it took quite a long time. And as a lifelong pro VAR individual, I've always said, don't worry about the delays. Like just make sure you get the decision right.

Elliot Smith58:42I mean, I mean, how much Clive do you think the stakes? Here for both teams informed how long they looked at it. And I know I can say this now because it came out our way, but this is one of the few times I understand the length of the delay. Full disclosure, I look at it now and I go, why did you look at that for so long? Why did like that? That's, that's, clearly a foul. It's clearly impeding. Can go onto in a minute. Why some of the bad faith arguments I think don't really make sense. But how much do you think that the VARs and the referee were like, there's a title and a relegation all rolled into one going on here. We have to make sure that we're disallowing this on good grounds.

Clive Palmer59:35Yeah, when it comes down to it, referees will make decisions, reinterpret them differently. But what they really focus on is the process. That's what they focus on, because that's something they follow, it's ticked off, how they act during the process, the communication, and acting to the rule of law. That's what they really focus on. If me and you, Tim, disagree on a decision, that's our interpretation of it. But what's immovable for them is that process and how they interpret the law itself. And so, sorry, apply the law in itself. In this case, if we just go that non-emotional route, it was applied perfectly. Neville did his podcast post game, which I recommend anyone listen to. I know it's Guy Neville, but trust me, listen to his podcast. It's really educational, particularly about the Ben White issue and his injury. And he has the privilege of listening to the VAR communication as it was happening. And even he said it was calm, authoritative. And it was done properly. And that's really good to hear. Because some of

Clive Palmer1:00:36The VAR conversations we've heard in the past were like screaming and it's not professional. It's not professional communication, you know? So that was really good to hear. This is where VAR is needed. Because I did not see anything in that first one. I just saw a melee. I Darren Cannon on match of day two last night did it brilliantly. I don't know if you've seen it yet. He's got a.

Elliot Smith1:00:59Yeah, yeah, have,

Clive Palmer1:01:01And he, think he's aligned me in the World Cup final once. This guy's been around, he's very experienced. And he explained it about how, what was material. And there were lots of pulling and shoving in the box, but the ball's not in playing distance. What's material? If the ball's gonna drop into the goalkeeper's hands, that's the area of materiality that you have to focus on. And when he puts his hands up to catch it, by the way, I don't think he approached it correctly, you know, and his goalkeeping coach would be after him for that. I guarantee you that.

Elliot Smith1:01:30He got under it, didn't

Clive Palmer1:01:30You should let,

Elliot Smith1:01:31He?

Clive Palmer1:01:32He got under it mate. He got under it. West Ham, don't touch him, you would have got it anyway. And he got under it and he didn't, he should have left room to run into to either punch it away or catch it on the move. So he's got under it. But because he's got under it, he was a target for contact and they just overplayed the contact. You know, it was too much on one goalkeeper that had his hands up just enough so you could see he was going to catch it. And so everything else that happened was immaterial to that moment. And again, you have to look at it in almost order, you know, and that was where it was. So, yeah, it was a right decision. I don't like all the backlash today, but in the end, I'm getting over it real quick because it was so important that went the right way. Every single fan of every single club can think of decisions that have gone the wrong way, particularly VAR. Remember the Brentford one a year or so ago? They didn't draw the lines, you know?

Clive Palmer1:02:34And things like that have happened and others are more, that's a factual one, but there are others of interpretation which I feel have been hard done by, but every fan will say that. But this was critical. This was literally a relegation and a title on the line. And I thought it was done really, really well. Really, really well with the care and attention that's needed for that. Magnitude of decision. So fair play to referees this year. I will say I've been way better than last year. Think about all the kick in the ball away stuff. And Chris Kavanagh was a guy that did Declan Rice at Brighton. Remember that one? Same referee. I'm still got the hump with him, but maybe I forgive him a little bit more right now. But that's where we were. That's how petty refereeing was. They've been a lot more silent and a lot more let the players win it. And so people are not being sent off with regularity. Let the players win it. And that's all I've ever wanted. On this case, it worked out for us. And I will say they got it right. But even the people, the salty pundits are saying, it probably was a foul. Do you know what mean? They just disappointed this arsenal. Do know

Clive Palmer1:03:45What I mean? That's where we're at.

Elliot Smith1:03:47Yeah. And this is what I tweeted this morning. People should be honest about that. They should be honest about where they're coming from on that and not pretend that they've got some kind of moral objection. I think where I think it's a clear foul, because like you said, what Darren can explain about what's material, because, there's players like wrestling each other, but like the ball doesn't really come near them anyway. And it's picky to pick on those things. But also for me, it's just clear. So if you look at the wording of a lot of the laws about like what's a foul, it's the word impeding that comes up a lot, right? So it's not contact, it's impeding. I think if you pull, if you're reaching out to pull a goalkeeper's arm away, you're impeding. Also, I think you're not going for the ball. So if it had just been the case that like, I dunno, he'd gone for a rire and he jumped and they'd collided or whatever. Where you can say, well, he's going for the ball. He's not going for the ball. He's trying to foul him. Like the intent. Yeah.

Clive Palmer1:04:44And he wasn't looking at the ball, Tim. Wasn't even looking at the ball.

Elliot Smith1:04:46The, the intent is to foul. It's not a coming together. It's not a bit of like a bit of a tussle. Um, you know, heavyweight boxing it's he literally. And you know, he's got a hold of his shirt as well. Think there's a few like minor offenses put together, but he, reaches up and he grabs his arm to take it

Clive Palmer1:05:03Hold his arm.

Elliot Smith1:05:05Away. Like, so that's a really intentional foul. That is not incidental. At all. So I think it's I think it's pretty obviously a foul obviously at the time I wish it had been disallowed straight away and not have to go through

Clive Palmer1:05:18Yeah, my gosh.

Elliot Smith1:05:20That torture but like a sign I know I know we're both of the same mind of this that refereeing should be contextual and you know game should have their own temperatures and stuff and you know, for example like the threshold for a penalty like a foul, that's a higher threshold of foul. That's not really in the laws of the game, but you know, a little coming together on the halfway line, you get a free kick in the penalty area. You might not get that. And that's right. That's because that's obviously it's a much bigger punishment. So you have to have a higher threshold. So all of these things happen in the game that we all know about. And for me, this was just a very obvious foul, but as much as I genuinely nearly died, I do understand in hindsight why they took so long because it was so important. They had to get it right. And obviously I can be very gracious about that afterwards because we got the call, but I say we got the call. Was the right call. It just was like,

Clive Palmer1:06:21It was alright, cool.

Elliot Smith1:06:22Like you say, even the saltiest people on arguing with that. Can't pretend. Look, one of my issues with VAR is not necessarily about accuracy and all of that. Just, don't like the way it affects the flow of the game. And that obviously did affect the flow of the game and took a really long time. And those are the things I don't like, um, about VAR. So I can't be a hypocrite and say, you know, if I'd been watching that game, supporting any other team, I'd have been like, Oh, do we need five minutes for this? Um, but I do think the magnitude it's a very unique situation. Like I say, on sky in England. I think, I think it was Clive Tilsley commentating and he said, this might be the biggest VAR call ever. Peter Drury. That's it.

Clive Palmer1:07:04Yeah, Peter Drew, I think it was. Think, you know what, Tim, Dan Cant said something that I thought was really interesting, because he spoke about law changes and potentially almost protecting the six yard box until the ball is struck. And I thought that was really interesting. And I think for him to just come up with that means it must be in discussion. You know, we love our squad, but we're football fans also. I don't like seeing these scrumages when people are just standing there pushing and pulling in the six yard box. But if you are, if you say the opposition, sorry, the attack can't get in the six yard box, you have a level of separation, which means you can attack a ball and there's separation there. So you can see the fouls, you can see things more clearly. When people are just standing on each other's toes, pushing and pulling and fighting, I'm not sure that's football anymore. And cause obviously we've, we've done this well. I think what we do, we're what we do though, we move in the box. So you might start at the back post and then we arrive into an area where the ball arrives. So people are trying to stop us getting to those areas. So they're pushing and pulling then stop. So we've been part of this trend without a doubt, but that last corner was so messy and it was meant to be messy. Weston had a really big team on and it was meant to be messy. They made it messy and then they nearly got something. If anything, the guy Pablo messed up.

Clive Palmer1:08:28He fouled him too much and he probably didn't need to because there was always going to be bits and pieces off that ball. And he just made it so blatant that, you know, no referee on second view could miss it. And that's what happened. But I do think it's not this is not anti arsenal. There could be law changes coming about how the six yard box is managed. And I think I wouldn't be against that if I wanted to you with football as a primary part of my mind, I think. These scrumages, we're get blamed for it by the way, these scrumages, they're all gonna get blamed on Arsenal. I'm not sure that's quite where the game should be going.

Elliot Smith1:09:05Yeah, I, so I think a couple of things about this, first of all, and I know Phil Costa tweeted about this as well. Like everyone, like just completely conflates everything because we're good at set pieces. Like, oh, I was always fouling at set pieces, but then you see all the compilations and then not. It's like, just, just because we're scoring loads of corners, it doesn't like people just don't. They're just like, oh, I was only good at set pieces. So they must be the ones doing all the fouling. I think we'd be fine. I think we'd be fine because

Clive Palmer1:09:33Yeah, we would.

Elliot Smith1:09:34We'd just come up with different ways. I don't, I understand exactly what you mean at the moment. Like there's just a big melee of bodies and every, again, it's like heavyweight boxing, you know, when they get tired and they just start hugging each other and it's not great to watch. I do think that the kind of the prospect of people rushing the six yard box might not, you know, for people who are offended isn't the word I'm looking for, but who don't like the spectacle. I'm not sure that like 10 blokes running headlong at the six yard box will be much better. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what else,

Clive Palmer1:10:08Some head injuries there as well couldn't they? You're creating speed aren't you?

Elliot Smith1:10:12You know, else you'll get, you'll get people on their tip toes on the six yard line, and then you'll have to re referee all that. Was he in the area? You'll get loads of VAR calls and, and stuff like that. So I, I, I understand, where that comes from. I just don't think it would work in practice. I also

Clive Palmer1:10:30Yeah, fair point.

Elliot Smith1:10:31Think would be fine. Do remember a couple of years ago, you know, when Ben White was like, you know, Untaping the goalkeepers gloves and all that we had a big crack down on that and everyone was like, Arsenal aren't going to be able to score anymore. And then we just stopped doing it and we were fine. As long as we got Sacka and Rice smacking them in and Gabriel attacking them, that's the common denominator. It's not, I don't even like, like Nicholas Yovar deserves his flowers, but I don't think that's the main thing. And it's not because we're pushing and pulling and doing WWE. We just have some guys who can really deliver and some guys that can really attack it. I don't think, you know, rule changes, rule alterations. I honestly don't think that would affect us that much anyway. So I'm kind of calm about it. But you know, ultimately Clive after the coal had been disallowed, I knew there was still like 90 seconds left and I knew we weren't going to spend it popping the ball around in the center circle. Was going to be an It's yeah, it was going to be Sunderland again, right? It's going to be Alamo. You know, Haley's Comet is coming into our penalty area and, but the final whistle, I, like I said earlier, I could, I didn't have the energy to celebrate the overturn. Most people around me didn't have a problem with that, but I think I just like, I think I just turned around

Elliot Smith1:11:50And like my soul had left my body. Don't really know what I was doing

Clive Palmer1:11:53Yeah, it's a one.

Elliot Smith1:11:55When the final whistle went. It was limbs again, and I did join in with that and like a wonderful chant of, yep, the best chant in football. Now you're going to believe us, you know, Martin Urda, God giving it the, kind of, giving it the fists and all of that, and just an, an, an outpouring of jubilation, relief, emotion, all mixed into one. And I think ultimately, if we're honest, there are other games, other ways this game could have gone. Would have made this the saddest podcast in the world and there were some fine margins that kind of went our way but the way I look at this game Clive it's not a classic performance we weren't all over them we didn't dissect them or anything like that it was to me it was a title winners game it was one nil

Clive Palmer1:12:46Yeah, pure will.

Elliot Smith1:12:48When your backs against the wall you're away from home you know you're knocking at the door and people have questioned this team's bottle a lot over this season and understandably so. I think that's a live discussion. Look at the way teams who haven't won the league in a while, Clive, the way they tend to win it. Like they throw it away and then they win it again. Like Man City 2012, us in 89, Blackburn 95, they lost their last game of the season, but Man U drew. And so like, I think it's a justifiable conversation to talk about nerves and tension, but. This game to me, this was a win of nerve and bottle and in many ways just as pleasing as the way we beat Fulham last week.

Clive Palmer1:13:35Yeah, absolutely. Were moments there. Games within games. But just, I really enjoyed our physicality and the fact that we wouldn't be pushed around. They tried to smash us pretty half time. I'm just looking at your career as just like arguing with people and just really fronting up. And West Ham had a lot to play for, but so did we. And it wasn't going to be a game of who wants it more. I think we outwilled them in the end. You know, we, we imposed ourselves on them, despite the fact that our manager had a brain freeze, which he doesn't normally have like this. You know, that would have been the biggest of all stock fallings if we hadn't have won this game, right? And I told there's a few players I didn't expect to be flat, who were flat, and others who were sparkling, who I didn't expect to be there. And if anything, when we get to post-mortem time, sorry, excuse me, post-mortem time. This was a victory for the squad. Know, it is, the numbers what we do, the amount of goal involvement for our bench players. It's been about this season, if we win, I'm still gonna say if, it was done before the transfer window was closed. I think the impact of those signings, how they've impacted the team directly and how indirectly they've impacted the players who were in the team to make sure they perform better and they're here longer.

Clive Palmer1:15:01Bit unfortunate, a couple of injuries, but every team has them. But you have to be arsehole twice. And this was a game that showed that to me more than ever. We had a great start. We lost some people. We messed up. We fixed it, got it right, got the goal. You got to beat us twice, mate. You got to beat us twice. That's a key thing. That's where the modern game is now compared to the last time we were winning trophies, Tim, big trophies. We didn't have five subs back then. We got five subs now. It's critical how we use them, critical how we adapt to different game shapes and build ups and different scenarios in games. And we have the ability to bring on five players of quality. It probably won us the Champions League semi-final as well. Our bench was stronger than theirs. When they took off their front two, they got weaker. We got stronger as the game went on. It could be critical in the final and it was definitely critical in this game. Was a victory for the squad, it a victory for our recruitment strategy to allow people to come on. Look at Noni's performance when he came on. That's what he was bought for. Exactly that. Probably come on five, 10 minutes too late. That's what he was bought for. Last year we had a plate sack until he couldn't move. And that's the difference, right? And it's so important, his role that he played, no matter how small. So yeah, it's a victory for the squad, it's a victory for the recruitment.

Clive Palmer1:16:26Let's hope, give me two more, mate. Just give me two more before I can truly celebrate.

Elliot Smith1:16:32Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, that's a good note to end it on what was terrifying. I think we were aged significantly, but ultimately incredibly satisfying. And one of those days where you wake up in the morning and you have that first couple of seconds of blurriness, and then you remember what happened and you just go, yeah, that happened yesterday. That was great. I love that. You know, mixed in with a bit of regret about some of the things I did afterwards. I, you know, an aspirin was needed. Do

Clive Palmer1:17:08Good for you.

Elliot Smith1:17:09You know what? In fact, Clive, I stuck a couple of beers in the fridge ready for when I got back. Cause I was like, whatever happens in this game, I'm going to need it. And, and I got back and you know, I'd prepared to that extent. I come back, I go in the kitchen and there are the empty cans in the recycling. Cause my wife had them.

Clive Palmer1:17:32Good for her. Brilliant.

Elliot Smith1:17:34And she, you know, she doesn't, she doesn't usually partake, but she was like, sorry, I needed them more than you did. So I was, I was confronted with a couple of empty tins when I got in, which, which was probably for the best, to be honest, because,

Clive Palmer1:17:48Okay.

Elliot Smith1:17:48You know, a few went down, down the pallet after the game. And rightly so, cause these days are to be enjoyed and hopefully there'll be more days to enjoy. Yeah, I believe Elliot is coming back from his, his business trip. To have been happening on the beach with cocktails. And so, you know, he'll be back to present the next pod. Obviously we'll have, we'll have Patreon content. I don't imagine Elliot's going to let this game go unremarked on from his point of view either. So

Clive Palmer1:18:20Know what he's like.

Elliot Smith1:18:21I'd expect an unmarked from him or something like that. But obviously we'll have something probably pretty much every day this week, like we usually do. So keep it with us. Thanks for, thanks for listening. We hope you're okay. We hope that your heart rates back down to a normal level and all your kind of, all your smartwatches have stopped beeping and telling you that you're, you're, need an ambulance. I don't wear one for that reason. We'll catch you very, very soon.